Interest with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
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# If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8, Rama 168:9</ref> | # If the original Jew wants to get his security deposit back from the other Jew who lent to the non-Jew and the non-Jew isn't cooperating, the lender Jew doesn't need to work with the borrower Jew since they didn't have any transaction one to another.<ref>Rosh responsa 108:8, Rama 168:9</ref> | ||
# If a Jew has a security deposit of a non-Jew in his hands and the non-Jew direct him to use it to borrow from another Jew with interest on his behalf, the first Jew may do so.<ref>Mordechai 337 writes that a Jew can use a non-Jew's security deposit to borrow from a Jew with interest if he is instructed so by the non-Jew. The Mordechai seems to apply this even to the case where the Jew didn't have the non-Jew's deposit but instead wanted to gift him a deposit of his own for its value. The Bet Yosef is troubled by this leniency since there's no mechanism by which the non-Jew is actually acquiring the deposit. Taz 168:14 gives a nuanced explanation that it was sold to the second Jew with a condition that the non-Jew could buy it back. Bach 168:13 and Nekudat Hakesef 168:11 explain that once a owner admits to the fact someone else owns his item it halachically belongs to that person (''kinyan odita'') and that is sufficient to remove the prohibition of ribbit. Either way, the Rama 169:11 concludes that we assume that it is impossible to gift a deposit to a non-Jew without him making a physical [[kinyan]] such as meshicha.</ref> | # If a Jew has a security deposit of a non-Jew in his hands and the non-Jew direct him to use it to borrow from another Jew with interest on his behalf, the first Jew may do so.<ref>Mordechai 337 writes that a Jew can use a non-Jew's security deposit to borrow from a Jew with interest if he is instructed so by the non-Jew. The Mordechai seems to apply this even to the case where the Jew didn't have the non-Jew's deposit but instead wanted to gift him a deposit of his own for its value. The Bet Yosef is troubled by this leniency since there's no mechanism by which the non-Jew is actually acquiring the deposit. Taz 168:14 gives a nuanced explanation that it was sold to the second Jew with a condition that the non-Jew could buy it back. Bach 168:13 and Nekudat Hakesef 168:11 explain that once a owner admits to the fact someone else owns his item it halachically belongs to that person (''kinyan odita'') and that is sufficient to remove the prohibition of ribbit. Either way, the Rama 169:11 concludes that we assume that it is impossible to gift a deposit to a non-Jew without him making a physical [[kinyan]] such as meshicha.</ref> | ||
====Non-Jew Borrowed from Jew with Collateral and Jewish Agent== | |||
#A Jewish agent brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest. After the loan is due, the lender Jew can ask the agent to show him which non-Jew he lent to but can not ask the agent to pay for the asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:27 cites the Rashba 3:47 who speaks of a case where a Jew brought a collateral from a non-Jew to another Jew in order to borrow with interest, then the lender Jew asked the agent to redeem the non-Jew’s collateral and pay for the loan. The Rashba rules that it is forbidden for the agent Jew to pay the loan and interest since he is merely an agent. He must though indicate to the lender Jew who is the non-Jew who borrowed the money. Shulchan Aruch YD 168:27 codifies the Rashba. Shach 168:83 explains that the agent has no responsibility to sell or buy the collateral from the lender.</ref> | |||
====Non-Jew Selling Jewish Debt==== | ====Non-Jew Selling Jewish Debt==== | ||
#If a Jew owed a non-Jew capital and interest, that non-Jew can sell that debt to another Jew. If the non-Jew collects the interest it is permitted for the Jew to accept it, yet if he doesn't then the second Jew shouldn't collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Rashba responsa 1:764 cited by Darkei Moshe 168:6, Bedek Habayit 168:27, and Knesset Hagedola (Bet Yosef 168:44).</ref> | #If a Jew owed a non-Jew capital and interest, that non-Jew can sell that debt to another Jew. If the non-Jew collects the interest it is permitted for the Jew to accept it, yet if he doesn't then the second Jew shouldn't collect the interest from the first Jew.<ref>Rashba responsa 1:764 cited by Darkei Moshe 168:6, Bedek Habayit 168:27, and Knesset Hagedola (Bet Yosef 168:44).</ref> | ||
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##If the non-Jew forcibly took the deposit from the first Jew then we assume that the deposit wasn't really acquired by the non-Jew and so when it is used to borrow against another Jew it is like there's a deal between the two Jews.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his second answer, Shach 168:26, 67, Taz 168:11. Gra 168:23 disagrees.</ref> | ##If the non-Jew forcibly took the deposit from the first Jew then we assume that the deposit wasn't really acquired by the non-Jew and so when it is used to borrow against another Jew it is like there's a deal between the two Jews.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his second answer, Shach 168:26, 67, Taz 168:11. Gra 168:23 disagrees.</ref> | ||
##Additionally, if the non-Jew immediately took that deposit from the first Jew and used it to borrow from the second Jew then it appears that he did so only to create a loan between two Jews. However, if he held onto it for some time for himself then it isn't an issue.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his first answer, Shach 168:67</ref> | ##Additionally, if the non-Jew immediately took that deposit from the first Jew and used it to borrow from the second Jew then it appears that he did so only to create a loan between two Jews. However, if he held onto it for some time for himself then it isn't an issue.<ref>Bet Yosef 168:10 in his first answer, Shach 168:67</ref> | ||
====Lending with Interest from a Non-Jewish with a Jewish Agent using a Jewish Security Deposit==== | |||
#If a Jew lent from another Jew and got a collateral for that loan, and specified that if the Jew didn’t pay up on time he would either sell the collateral or borrow against it with interest. If he then borrowed against it with interest from a non-Jew, he isn’t responsible to pay the interest for the loan since that was the stipulation. Instead the Jewish borrower needs to pay the interest in order to redeem his collateral.<ref>Rashba responsa cited by Bet Yosef 168:26 explains that once they stipulated that the lender Jew can borrow with interest against the collateral we understand that to mean that the ledner Jew isn’t borrowing from the non-Jew for himself, rather he is doing so as an agent of the other Jew. Therefore, the borrower Jew can repay the interest to the non-Jew and it isn’t interest to the lender Jew since he is neither a lender or a guarantor of the loan, he is simply the agent. Shaar Mishpat 168:13 cites this Rashba but also cites the Maharit YD 46 based on the Maharam who argues that it is an asmachta and isn't binding. Therefore, the lender couldn't lend to the non-Jew with interest on that collateral. Shulchan Gavoha 168:50 cites this Rashba and fundamentally puts it in the same camp as the Rosh which is codfied by Shulchan Aruch 168:26. Kovetz Halichot Horah Ribbit v. 5 p. 316-7 explains that it is necessary for the Rashba and Ramban 71a that the lender Jew be the agent of the original borrower as well as the fact that the non-Jew is collecting from the collateral. The reason is that if it was simply that the non-Jew would collect from the collateral but the Jewish lender was never appointed as an agent then he is in essence borrowing for himself with interest and having another Jew repay his interest using his collateral.</ref> | |||
#If a Jew lent from another Jew and got a collateral for that loan, he can then use that collateral to borrow with interest from a non-Jew. He should specify to the non-Jew that he is borrowing on behalf of another Jew and he has no responsibility. Alternatively, if the collateral is worth the entire value of the loan he can use it to borrow from the non-Jew with interest. Then the original borrower Jew can pay the non-Jew the interest and redeem his collateral. The Jewish lender was simply the agent of the first Jew to borrow with interest from a non-Jew.<ref>Tashbetz Katan 486 writes that if the Jewish lender specifies to the non-Jew that he is borrowing on behalf of another Jew it is permitted, otherwise it is like he is borrowing for himself and having the original borrower Jew pay the interest is forbidden. Yet, the Bet Yosef 168:26 points out that the Rosh implies that it is permitted for the original borrower to pay the interest even if the lender Jew didn’t make that stipulation. Shulchan Aruch 168:26 simply quotes the case without specifically mentioning that stipulation. Shach 168:82 explains that the Tashbetz Katan and Rosh agree. Either a stipulation is necessary or having a collateral that is worth the entire value of the loan and interest. Otherwise it is forbidden. Chelkat Binyamin 168:291 agrees. Mayin Ganim Abadi YD 9 shows at length that the Bet Yosef thought that there is a dispute between the Tashbetz Katan and Rosh. The Rosh thinks that even without specifying it is assumed that the non-Jew depends on the collateral and there’s no responsibility upon the Jew. However, the Tashbetz Katan thinks that only if the Jew specifies that is it so, otherwise we assume that the non-Jew will hold responsible the Jew who is borrowing from him as well as from the collateral, in which case it would be forbidden for the original borrower to pay the interest. Erech Lechem 168:17 implies this as well. He explains that the Ran cited in Shulchan Aruch 168:17 implies like the Tashbetz Katan, yet, Shulchan Aruch ultimately sided with the Rosh and Rashba unlike the Tashbetz Katan and Ran.</ref> | |||
===Selling a Non-Jew's Debt to Another Jew=== | ===Selling a Non-Jew's Debt to Another Jew=== | ||
