Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem: Difference between revisions

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* [The Bet Yosef 114:6 asks why the Tur regarding Mashiv HaRuach rules like the Ravyah while regarding Atta Chonatanu he quotes the Rosh who argues. The Bet Yosef answers that the Rosh and Tur hold that regarding insertions which are necessary and if forgotten one would have to repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]] one is permitted to add them before the next Bracha. However, insertions which don’t require one to repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]] one shouldn’t insert them between one Bracha and the next. This differentiation is the basis for the ruling of S”A 114:6, 294:4, and 422:1 and is brought in the Mishna Brurah 114:32.]  
* [The Bet Yosef 114:6 asks why the Tur regarding Mashiv HaRuach rules like the Ravyah while regarding Atta Chonatanu he quotes the Rosh who argues. The Bet Yosef answers that the Rosh and Tur hold that regarding insertions which are necessary and if forgotten one would have to repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]] one is permitted to add them before the next Bracha. However, insertions which don’t require one to repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]] one shouldn’t insert them between one Bracha and the next. This differentiation is the basis for the ruling of S”A 114:6, 294:4, and 422:1 and is brought in the Mishna Brurah 114:32.]  


* [The Mordechai (Tanit Siman 614) explains that after one adds Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem one shouldn’t repeat the conclusion of the Bracha (Baruch Atta Hashem) just like the Bracha one makes if one forgot to say [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Rosh Chodesh]] in Birkat HaMazon and remembered right after Boneh Yerushalyim which doesn’t have a conclusion.  
* [The Mordechai (Tanit Siman 614) explains that after one adds Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem one shouldn’t repeat the conclusion of the Bracha (Baruch Atta Hashem) just like the Bracha one makes if one forgot to say [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Rosh Chodesh]] in [[Birkat HaMazon]] and remembered right after Boneh Yerushalyim which doesn’t have a conclusion.  
** The Bet Yosef 114:6 asks on this comparison saying that [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Rosh Chodesh]] isn’t an obligation unlike Retzeh on [[Shabbat]] or [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Yom Tov]] which are obligations and if one forgets one is supposed to insert a Bracha with a conclusion. The Bet Yosef answers that Birkat HaMazon is different since Retzeh on [[Shabbat]] and [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Yom Tov]] are close to the end of the Bracha and so when it’s forgotten and requires to be inserted it deserves its own conclusion.
** The Bet Yosef 114:6 asks on this comparison saying that [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Rosh Chodesh]] isn’t an obligation unlike Retzeh on [[Shabbat]] or [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Yom Tov]] which are obligations and if one forgets one is supposed to insert a Bracha with a conclusion. The Bet Yosef answers that [[Birkat HaMazon]] is different since Retzeh on [[Shabbat]] and [[Yaaleh VeYavo]] on [[Yom Tov]] are close to the end of the Bracha and so when it’s forgotten and requires to be inserted it deserves its own conclusion.
** The Bet Yosef quotes the Maharam who gives another answer saying that it would be considered an interruption (hefsek) to add a Bracha between two Brachot of [[Shemoneh Esrei]], however, after Boneh Yerushalyim in Birkat HaMazon it’s not an interruption to add a Bracha because the primary part of Birkat HaMazon (the first three Brachot) is complete.
** The Bet Yosef quotes the Maharam who gives another answer saying that it would be considered an interruption (hefsek) to add a Bracha between two Brachot of [[Shemoneh Esrei]], however, after Boneh Yerushalyim in [[Birkat HaMazon]] it’s not an interruption to add a Bracha because the primary part of [[Birkat HaMazon]] (the first three Brachot) is complete.
* The S”A 114:6 rules like the Mordechai that one shouldn’t say any conclusion when adding an insertion between the Brachot of [[Shemoneh Esrei]].] </ref>
* The S”A 114:6 rules like the Mordechai that one shouldn’t say any conclusion when adding an insertion between the Brachot of [[Shemoneh Esrei]].] </ref>
* remembered after having completed the Bracha and started the next Bracha, one has to repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]]. <ref> Rabbi Chanina in Gemara Tanit (3b) says that if one forgot to say Morid HaGeshem in the winter months one must repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]]. This is the ruling of the Rif (Tanit 1a), Rosh (Tanit 1:1), Rambam (Tefillah 10:8), Tur 114:5, and S”A 114:5. </ref>
* remembered after having completed the Bracha and started the next Bracha, one has to repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]]. <ref> Rabbi Chanina in Gemara Tanit (3b) says that if one forgot to say Morid HaGeshem in the winter months one must repeat [[Shemoneh Esrei]]. This is the ruling of the Rif (Tanit 1a), Rosh (Tanit 1:1), Rambam (Tefillah 10:8), Tur 114:5, and S”A 114:5. </ref>

Revision as of 14:19, 16 September 2012

When we say it

  1. From the Mussaf of the last day of Sukkot until the Mussaf of the first day of Pesach (the winter months) we add in the phrase Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem. [1]

If one made a mistake in the winter

  1. In the winter, if one forgot to say Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem and
  • remembered before the end of the Bracha, one should say it where one remembered and continue from there [2] unless one already said VeNeeman Atta LeHachayot Meytim in which case one should return to that point say Mashiv HaRuach and continue. [3]
  • remembered after having said Baruch Atta Hashem before saying Mechaye Maytim, one should say Lamdeni Chukecha (למדני חוקיך) and then go back to Mashiv HaRuach and continue from there. [4]
  • remembered after having completed the Bracha before the next Bracha, one should say Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem right there and continue with Atta Kadosh. [5]
  • remembered after having completed the Bracha and started the next Bracha, one has to repeat Shemoneh Esrei. [6]
  1. In the winter, if one said Morid HaTal instead of Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem if one remembered before the end of the Bracha one should say Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem before VeNeeman Atta LeHaChayot Meytim. [7] However, if one finished the Bracha one doesn’t go back to correct it. [8]
  2. Similarly, during the winter if one said both Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem and Morid HaTal one doesn’t go back to correct it. [9]

If one made a mistake in the summer

Omitting Morid HaTal

  1. The Sephardic minhag is to add Morid HaTal during the summer months. If one forgot to say Morid HaTal one doesn’t have to return to correct it even if one remembered before finishing the Bracha. [10]
  2. However, many Ashkenazim have the custom not to say it at all during the summer. [11]

Inserting Mashiv HaRuach

  1. In the summer one doesn’t say Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem. If by mistake one did say it and one didn’t finish the Bracha one should return to the beginning of the Bracha (Atta Gibor) and continue from there. However, if one finished the Bracha, one must start Shemoneh Esrei again from the beginning. [12]
  2. If one mistakenly said Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem and remembers before the end of the end Bracha one should return to the beginning of the Bracha (Atta Gibor), however, if one didn’t and only said Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem and continued with Mechalkel Chaim and then completed the Bracha one fulfilled one’s obligation. [13]
  3. Similarly, if one mistakenly said both Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem and also Morid HaTal and finished the Bracha one must start Shemoneh Esrei again. [14]

References

  1. ↑ S"A 114:1
  2. ↑
    • The Ravyah (quoted in the Mordechai (Tanit Siman 612, the first piece of Tanit) explains that if one forgot Mashiv HaRuach in the winter and remembered before the end of the bracha it’s sufficient to say Mashiv HaRuach and not return to the beginning of the Bracha because it’s recognizable that one is saying the correct insertion (see Ravyah above). However, the Rosh (Tanit 1:1) writes that if one remembers one should say it wherever one remembers.
    • [This is according to the Bet Yosef 114:6 who says that there’s a dispute between the Rosh and Ravyah of how to understand the Gemara which says if one forgets to say Morid HaGeshem one has to repeat. The Ravyah understands the gemara to mean if one remembers before the end of the Bracha one should return to Mashiv HaRuach and continue with Mechalkel Chaim. However, the Rosh understands the Gemara to mean that if one finished the Bracha one must repeat Shemoneh Esrei, however, if one didn’t finish the Bracha then the Rosh says based on logic that one may say it at any point. On the other hand, the Bach 114:7 says that both the Ravyah and Rosh agree that one may say it at any point in the Bracha. ]
    • The S”A 114:6 rules like the Rosh that one should continue from the point one remembered. Halacha Brurah 114:12 rules like S”A.
  3. ↑ Mishna Brurah 114:29 rules this way so that one is able to conclude the Bracha with the mean idea of the Bracha. This is also brought by the Kaf HaChaim 114:42 and Halacha Brurah 114:12.
  4. ↑
    • Biur Halacha 114:6 D”H BeLo Chatima quotes several reasons not to hold like the Ravyah (who says that one may insert Mashiv HaRuach after Mechaye Maytim before Atta Kadosh), however, he concludes that it’s difficult to rule against the Shulchan Aruch (who rules like the Ravyah) and many achronim who agree with S”A. The Biur Halacha adds that if one remembers before finishing the Bracha one should conclude with the words Lamdeni Chukecha which is the conclusion of a פסוק and then one will be able to go back to Mashiv HaRuach and continue from there avoiding the situation of the Ravyah. Additionally, if one forgot VeTen Tal UMatar Lebracha one should say it in Shomeh Tefillah rather than say it before the next Bracha. The Mishna Brurah 114:32 seems to hold like Shulchan Aruch unless it’s possible to avoid this situation.
    • However, the Sh”t Igrot Moshe 4:93 argues on the Biur Halacha and says that the advise of concluding the Bracha with Lamdeni Chukecha isn’t a viable option because it’s considered an interruption to speak words of Torah in middle of Shemoneh Esrei. Rather the Igrot Moshe says that one should rely on Shulchan Aruch completely and if one remembers after having said Baruch Atta Hashem one should finish the Bracha and then say Mashiv HaRuach right there before the next Bracha.
    • Despite the argument of the Igrot Moshe, most achronim side with the Biur Halacha including Ben Ish Chai (Nitsavim #20), Kaf HaChaim 114:28, Sh”t Bear Moshe 4:18, Or Letzion (vol 2, 7:29), Sh”t Yabea Omer 1:22, Sh”t Yechava Daat 5:49, Tefillah KeHilchata 12:28, and Piskei Teshuvot 114:9.
  5. ↑
    • The Ravyah (Tanit Siman 846) writes that if one forgot to say Morid HaGeshem in the winter and one remembered before the beginning of the next Bracha one may say Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem at that point. This is also quoted by the Mordechai (Tanit Siman 513), Rosh (Tanit 1:1), and Hagot Maimon (Tefillah 10) in name of the Smak. This is the ruling of Tur and S”A 114:6. [Many Achronim agree with S”A including Ben Ish Chai (Bishalach #16).]
    • [The Bet Yosef 114:6 asks why the Tur regarding Mashiv HaRuach rules like the Ravyah while regarding Atta Chonatanu he quotes the Rosh who argues. The Bet Yosef answers that the Rosh and Tur hold that regarding insertions which are necessary and if forgotten one would have to repeat Shemoneh Esrei one is permitted to add them before the next Bracha. However, insertions which don’t require one to repeat Shemoneh Esrei one shouldn’t insert them between one Bracha and the next. This differentiation is the basis for the ruling of S”A 114:6, 294:4, and 422:1 and is brought in the Mishna Brurah 114:32.]
    • [The Mordechai (Tanit Siman 614) explains that after one adds Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem one shouldn’t repeat the conclusion of the Bracha (Baruch Atta Hashem) just like the Bracha one makes if one forgot to say Yaaleh VeYavo on Rosh Chodesh in Birkat HaMazon and remembered right after Boneh Yerushalyim which doesn’t have a conclusion.
      • The Bet Yosef 114:6 asks on this comparison saying that Yaaleh VeYavo on Rosh Chodesh isn’t an obligation unlike Retzeh on Shabbat or Yaaleh VeYavo on Yom Tov which are obligations and if one forgets one is supposed to insert a Bracha with a conclusion. The Bet Yosef answers that Birkat HaMazon is different since Retzeh on Shabbat and Yaaleh VeYavo on Yom Tov are close to the end of the Bracha and so when it’s forgotten and requires to be inserted it deserves its own conclusion.
      • The Bet Yosef quotes the Maharam who gives another answer saying that it would be considered an interruption (hefsek) to add a Bracha between two Brachot of Shemoneh Esrei, however, after Boneh Yerushalyim in Birkat HaMazon it’s not an interruption to add a Bracha because the primary part of Birkat HaMazon (the first three Brachot) is complete.
    • The S”A 114:6 rules like the Mordechai that one shouldn’t say any conclusion when adding an insertion between the Brachot of Shemoneh Esrei.]
  6. ↑ Rabbi Chanina in Gemara Tanit (3b) says that if one forgot to say Morid HaGeshem in the winter months one must repeat Shemoneh Esrei. This is the ruling of the Rif (Tanit 1a), Rosh (Tanit 1:1), Rambam (Tefillah 10:8), Tur 114:5, and S”A 114:5.
  7. ↑ Kaf HaChaim 114:38 and Halacha Brurah 114:11
  8. ↑ S”A 114:5
    • The Rif (Tanit 1a) quotes the Yerushalmi (Tanit 1:1) which says that even though if one forgets to say Morid HaGeshem if one said Morid HaTal in it’s place one has fulfilled one’s obligation. The Tosfot (Brachot 29b D”H Ha), Rabbenu Yonah (19b D”H VeOmrim), Rosh (Brachot 4:14), and Rambam (Tefillah 10:8) agree with the Rif against the Ran (Tanit 1b D”H Haya) who questions the Rif.
    • The Rabbenu Yonah (19b D”H VeOmrim) explain that only in the second Bracha of Atta Gibor does a mention of dew satisfy the obligation of mentioning rain because the only obligation is to mention a praise of Hashem, however, in the Bracha for rain (Birkat HaShanim, the ninth bracha) a mention of dew doesn’t satisfy the obligation because there’s an obligation to request rain and requesting dew is a different (and unnecessary) request altogether.
    • Similarly, the Bet Yosef 114:5 explains that the obligation to praise Hashem that He supplies the needs of the world is preferably fulfilled with the mention of rain because rain is an immediate need, however, after the fact it is fulfilled with the mentioning of dew because it too is a mentioning of a need of the world.
    • However, the Taz 117:3 says that only a mentioning of dew satisfies the obligation because it too is a praise about how Hashem gives life through water (in rain and dew) to the world. The Pri Megadim (M”Z 114:11) says that according to the Taz if one only say Mashiv HaRuach and not Morid HaGeshem one would not have fulfilled one’s obligation, however, according to the Bet Yosef, one may have fulfilled one’s obligation. This is also quoted in the Kaf HaChaim 114:37. ]
    • The Tur 114:5, and S”A 114:5 codify the halacha like the Rif.
  9. ↑ S”A 114:3 writes that if one said Morid HaTal in the winter one doesn’t have to repeat Shemona and clearly he’s not talking about where one forgot to say Mashiv HaRuach UMorid HaGeshem because in such a case one actually does have to repeat Shemoneh Esrei (S”A 114:5).
  10. ↑ S”A 114:3 implies that the Sephardic minhag is to say Morid HaTal during the summer. This implication is made by the Mishna Brurah 114:13. The S”A 114:3 rules that if one forgot to say Morid HaTal one doesn’t have to return to correct it. Magan Avraham 114:4 adds that even if one didn’t finish the Bracha one doesn’t have to go back to correct it. Mishna Brurah 114:12, Kaf HaChaim 114:18, and Halacha Brurah 114:5 agree.
  11. ↑ The Rama 114:3 writes that the Ashkenazic minhag is not to say Morid HaTal during the winter or summer. Halacha Brurah 114:5 writes that the minhag of Ashkenazim in Israel is to say Morid HaTal during the summer like Sephardim.
  12. ↑ S”A 114:4
    • The Gemara Tanit (3b) quotes Rabbi Chanina who says that if one said Morid HaGeshem in the summer one has to repeat Shemoneh Esrei. Rashi (3b D”h Morid HaGeshem Machzirin) explains that one must repeat Shemoneh Esrei because it’s a curse for there to be rain in the summer.
    • The Ran (Tanit 1b D”H Tu Garsinan, quoted by Bet Yosef 114:4) asks why someone has to repeat Shemoneh Esrei in the last 15 days of Nissan if rain is only a curse after Nissan and he answers that since rain is a curse the majority of the summer months the rabbis didn’t make any distinction and obligated one to repeat Shemoneh Esrei in both cases.
    • The Rosh (Tanit 1:1) writes that if during the summer one said (Mashiv HaRuach U)Morid HaGeshem and one remembers before the end of the Bracha one should return to the beginning of the Bracha. However, if one finished the Bracha one must return to the beginning of Shemoneh Esrei because the first three Brachot of Shemoneh Esrei are considered like one unit. This is also the opinion of the Ravyah (quoted in the Mordechai (Tanit Siman 612, the first piece of Tanit).
    • The Ravyah (quoted in the Mordechai (Tanit Siman 612, the first piece of Tanit) explains that if one said Mashiv HaRuach in the summer returning to Mechalkel Chaim isn’t sufficient because it’s not recognizable that one is making an omission (as one says that everyday) rather one should start from the beginning of the Bracha and then the omission of Mashiv HaRuach is evident.
    • However, the Bet Yosef 114:4 understands the Rambam (Tefillah 10:8) as saying that if one said Morid HaGeshem even if one didn’t finish the Bracha one must return to the beginning of Shemoneh Esrei.
    • The Tur and S”A 114:4 rule like the Rosh and Ravyah.
  13. ↑ Mishna Brurah 114:19 (see also previous footnote)
  14. ↑ Rama 114:4 (see earlier footnote)
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