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Zimmun: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
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*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2] also says that a woman may lead a zimmun for 3 men. See also [https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.38a.9?lang=he&with=Ritva Ritva on Sukka 38a s.v. tanu rabanan] who seems to say the same. | *[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2] also says that a woman may lead a zimmun for 3 men. See also [https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.38a.9?lang=he&with=Ritva Ritva on Sukka 38a s.v. tanu rabanan] who seems to say the same. | ||
*There’s room to explain the Zohar as saying that 1 man can lead a zimmun of 3 women. See [https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Midrash_Rut.594?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&lang=bi Zohar Chadash on Rut (§594 on Sefaria)] and the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14248#p=336&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9C%20%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%9C%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A2%20%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%99%20%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sulam edition (pg. 133; daf 87d in the old edition)]. | *There’s room to explain the Zohar as saying that 1 man can lead a zimmun of 3 women. See [https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Midrash_Rut.594?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&lang=bi Zohar Chadash on Rut (§594 on Sefaria)] and the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14248#p=336&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9C%20%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%9C%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A2%20%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%99%20%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sulam edition (pg. 133; daf 87d in the old edition)]. (However, the Matok Midevash pg. 579 explains the Zohar according to the opinion that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun of 3 women.) | ||
Sources that '''do not''' allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women: | Sources that '''do not''' allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women: | ||
**[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.) | **[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.) | ||
**Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51- | **Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51-][https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=81 52])— there’s room to say that he holds that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women, since he only requires women to be yotzei from a man when there’s already 3 men making a zimmun. Seemingly even though there’s an advantage of hearing birkat hamazon from a man, this is not allowed when there’s no zimmun of 3 men. (This matter requires further study.) | ||
**Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small> | **Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small> | ||
