Template:Definition of Chamar Medina: Difference between revisions

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#Chamar Medina includes beer or cognac and does not include soda, lemonade, or water. Sephardim hold that coffee, tea, orange juice can not be used as chamar medina.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 296:2 writes that one may make Havdalah on beer if it is Chamar Medina or other drinks besides for water. Birkei Yosef 296:3 clarifies that the Shulchan Aruch's language of "or other drinks" didn't mean to include milk and oil, but rather he meant other types of Chamar Medina and exclude water even if the people of the town only drink water. Sh"t Igrot Moshe 2:75 rules that since soda is just like water, it isn't Chamar Medina, and thus, can not be used for Havdalah. Sh"t Vayan Avraham (Izrael) Siman 34 (pg 63) writes that he remembers in the holocaust the question arose whether lemonade could be used for Havdalah and he concludes that it just like water and can’t be used for Havdalah. Halachot Ketanot 1:9 writes that Chamar Medina must have alhocol and so coffee is not Chamar Medina. Yalkut Yosef 296:8 writes that one may not use coffee, tea, orange juice, or soda for Havdalah, but one if there's no wine in the city, one may use beer or cognac which are considered Chamar Medina; Chazon Ovadia, Hilchot Shabbat, Chelek 2, Page 408 specifies that coffee, tea, milk, and fruit juice are not considered chamar medina, and therefore one may not make havdalah with them. More sources can be found in Yabia Omer OC 3:19 for this approach.</ref> Chamar medina is still relevant today.<ref>Rav Chaim Kanievsky in Kovetz Teshuvot 1:57 asked Rav Elyashiv whether a sick person could recite havdalah on tisha b'av on wine or chamar medina. Rav Elyashiv responded that they should use beer or another drink. Rav Chaim responded that the Chazon Ish thought that nowadays nothing including beer is chamar medina since wine is so common and even orange juice he was hesitant to allow using it as chamar medina.</ref>
#Chamar Medina (lit: wine of the land)<ref>The Rashbam (cited in the Tur siman 272) holds that for a drink to be considered chamar medina, there has to be no wine available in the entire city. The Tur then cites a yesh mefarshim that a beverage can only be chamar medina if there is no wine within a day's journey of the city. However, from the Rambam (hilchot shabbat 29:17) it sounds like he thinks that as long as people in that locale typically drink this beverage instead of wine ("מדינה שרוב יינה שכר"), this is good enough to consider that beverage chamar medina. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe OC 2:75 defines chamar medina as something you would serve to guests who you want to show respect to. Halachot Ketanot 1:9 writes that chamar medina must have alhocol, although see below for other poskim who argue.</ref> includes beer<ref name=":0">Shulchan Aruch O.C. 296:2 writes that one may make Havdalah on beer (שכר) if it is Chamar Medina or other drinks besides for water.</ref> or cognac<ref>Yalkut Yosef 296:8</ref>.
#According to Ashkenazim, juice, coffee, or tea could be chamar medina, while milk or oil are not.<ref>As for the definition of chamar medina Mishnah Brurah 272:24 says that even beer is only permitted in a place where it is a common drink. Mishna Brurah 272:25 prohibits the use of milk or oil, and Mishna Brurah 272:30 permits the use of liquor. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare footnote 25 says that according to Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach milk is not allowed even in places where it is commonly used like Switzerland. He also says that juice, tea, or coffee maybe permitted but soda is definitely not because it is just like water. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe OC 2:75 defines chamar medina as something you would serve to guests who you want to show respect to. Tzitz Eliezer 8:16 and 14:42 allows using coffee, tea, or milk as chamar medina when there is no wine available. Igrot Moshe 2:75 says that in an extenuating circumstance tea or milk could be used as chamar medina.</ref>
##There is a debate in the poskim whether chamar medina is still relevant today.<ref>Mishna Brurah (272:24) cites from the Magen Avraham that to be considered chamar medina, there has to be no wine available in the city that year, and this beverage has to be the primary beverage of the city. This is based on the Rashbam and the yesh mefarshim cited in the Tur (see previous note). However, in the Biur Halacha (272:9 s.v. shemikadshin) he cites the position of the Rambam that as long most people in the city drink this beverage then it is considered chamar medina (מדינה שרוב יינה שכר), even if there is wine available in the city.
#One may not use soda because soda isn't considered Chamar Medina.<ref>Sh"t Igrot Moshe 2:75 rules that soda is just like water and can not be used for [[Kiddish]]. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare 272 fnt. 25 agrees.</ref>
 
Rav Chaim Kanievsky in Kovetz Teshuvot 1:57 asked Rav Elyashiv whether a sick person could recite havdalah on tisha b'av on wine or chamar medina. Rav Elyashiv responded that they should use beer or another drink that is chamar medina. Rav Chaim responded that the Chazon Ish thought that nowadays nothing, including beer, is chamar medina since wine is so common (presumably based on the Magen Avraham cited above). See Dirshu Mishna Brurah (296 ft. 12) who cites this position of the Chazon Ish. As noted, Rav Elyashiv disagrees and thinks that even though wine is available nowadays everywhere, nonetheless there is still chamar medina because most people don't drink wine as part of a regular seudah, but rather other beverages (he relies upon the position of the Rambam cited in the biur halacha).</ref>
#List of beverages:
##The following are NOT chamar medina: water<ref>Shulchan Aruch 272:9 explains that water is definitionally not able to be considered chamar medina. Mishna Brurah (272:25) explains that even if the city drinks only water and nothing else, it still cannot be considered chamar medina. Mishna Brurah (296:10) explains that this is because water isn't considered "חשיב" (lit: important, significant).</ref>, soda/lemonade<ref>Sh"t Igrot Moshe 2:75 rules that soda is just like water and can not be used for [[Kiddish|kiddush]]. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare 272 fnt. 25 agrees. Sh"t Vayan Avraham (Izrael) Siman 34 (pg 63) writes that he remembers in the holocaust the question arose whether lemonade could be used for Havdalah and he concludes that it just like water and can’t be used for Havdalah.</ref>, oil<ref>Mishna Brurah 272:25</ref>
##The following ARE chamar medina: beer<ref name=":0" />, hard liquor (schnapps)<ref>Mishna Brurah 272:30. This seems to have been the common minhag in Ashkenaz, to make kiddush shabbat day on schnapps despite the availability of wine. See the Bach (272:10 s.v. v'ikah) who is perplexed by this minhag and attempts to justify it. See Mishna Brurah 272:29 who explains that perhaps it is because wine is expensive and kiddush shabbat day is only drabanan anyway, so we can be lenient and use schnapps and not be concerned with the Rambam's shita that is invalid for kiddush. Mishna Brurah 272:30 seems to imply that another reason to use schnapps would be if you prefer it (similar to the discussion regarding making kiddush on bread Friday night). </ref>
##The following are debatable: coffee<ref>Halachot Ketanot 1:9 writes that Chamar Medina must have alhocol and so coffee is not Chamar Medina. Yalkut Yosef 296:8 writes that one may not use coffee, tea, orange juice, or soda for Havdalah, but one if there's no wine in the city, one may use beer or cognac which are considered Chamar Medina; Chazon Ovadia, Hilchot Shabbat, Chelek 2, Page 408 specifies that coffee, tea, milk, and fruit juice are not considered chamar medina, and therefore one may not make havdalah with them. More sources can be found in Yabia Omer OC 3:19 for this approach.  
 
*However ashkenazi poskim are more expansive, and do not require the beverage to be alcoholic to be considered chamar medina. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare (siman 272 footnote 25) says that coffee, juice, or tea may be permitted.</ref>, milk<ref>Mishna Brurah (272:25) says that milk is not chamar medina. Dirshu Mishna Brurah (296 ft. 15) cites Rav Shlomo Zalmen that even in a place where everyone drinks milk it still isn't chamar medina because it isn't a chashuv beverage. However, Igrot Moshe 2:75 says that in an extenuating circumstances, milk could be used as chamar medina in a place where it is common to drink. Tzitz Eliezer 8:16 and 14:42 agrees.</ref>, juice<ref>Dirshu Mishna Brurah (296 ft. 16) cites from Rav Elyashiv that juices such as orange juice or grapefruit juice are considered chamar medina. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare (siman 272 footnote 25) says that juice may be permitted.</ref>, tea<ref>Igrot Moshe 2:75 says that in an extenuating circumstances, tea can be considered chamar medina. Tzitz Eliezer 8:16 and 14:42 agrees, as does Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare (siman 272 footnote 25).</ref>
###Generally ashkenaz poskim allow these, whereas sephardi poskim do not.

Latest revision as of 12:53, 23 July 2024

  1. Chamar Medina (lit: wine of the land)[1] includes beer[2] or cognac[3].
    1. There is a debate in the poskim whether chamar medina is still relevant today.[4]
  2. List of beverages:
    1. The following are NOT chamar medina: water[5], soda/lemonade[6], oil[7]
    2. The following ARE chamar medina: beer[2], hard liquor (schnapps)[8]
    3. The following are debatable: coffee[9], milk[10], juice[11], tea[12]
      1. Generally ashkenaz poskim allow these, whereas sephardi poskim do not.
  1. ↑ The Rashbam (cited in the Tur siman 272) holds that for a drink to be considered chamar medina, there has to be no wine available in the entire city. The Tur then cites a yesh mefarshim that a beverage can only be chamar medina if there is no wine within a day's journey of the city. However, from the Rambam (hilchot shabbat 29:17) it sounds like he thinks that as long as people in that locale typically drink this beverage instead of wine ("מדינה שרוב יינה שכר"), this is good enough to consider that beverage chamar medina. Rav Moshe Feinstein in Iggerot Moshe OC 2:75 defines chamar medina as something you would serve to guests who you want to show respect to. Halachot Ketanot 1:9 writes that chamar medina must have alhocol, although see below for other poskim who argue.
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Shulchan Aruch O.C. 296:2 writes that one may make Havdalah on beer (שכר) if it is Chamar Medina or other drinks besides for water.
  3. ↑ Yalkut Yosef 296:8
  4. ↑ Mishna Brurah (272:24) cites from the Magen Avraham that to be considered chamar medina, there has to be no wine available in the city that year, and this beverage has to be the primary beverage of the city. This is based on the Rashbam and the yesh mefarshim cited in the Tur (see previous note). However, in the Biur Halacha (272:9 s.v. shemikadshin) he cites the position of the Rambam that as long most people in the city drink this beverage then it is considered chamar medina (מדינה שרוב יינה שכר), even if there is wine available in the city. Rav Chaim Kanievsky in Kovetz Teshuvot 1:57 asked Rav Elyashiv whether a sick person could recite havdalah on tisha b'av on wine or chamar medina. Rav Elyashiv responded that they should use beer or another drink that is chamar medina. Rav Chaim responded that the Chazon Ish thought that nowadays nothing, including beer, is chamar medina since wine is so common (presumably based on the Magen Avraham cited above). See Dirshu Mishna Brurah (296 ft. 12) who cites this position of the Chazon Ish. As noted, Rav Elyashiv disagrees and thinks that even though wine is available nowadays everywhere, nonetheless there is still chamar medina because most people don't drink wine as part of a regular seudah, but rather other beverages (he relies upon the position of the Rambam cited in the biur halacha).
  5. ↑ Shulchan Aruch 272:9 explains that water is definitionally not able to be considered chamar medina. Mishna Brurah (272:25) explains that even if the city drinks only water and nothing else, it still cannot be considered chamar medina. Mishna Brurah (296:10) explains that this is because water isn't considered "חשיב" (lit: important, significant).
  6. ↑ Sh"t Igrot Moshe 2:75 rules that soda is just like water and can not be used for kiddush. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare 272 fnt. 25 agrees. Sh"t Vayan Avraham (Izrael) Siman 34 (pg 63) writes that he remembers in the holocaust the question arose whether lemonade could be used for Havdalah and he concludes that it just like water and can’t be used for Havdalah.
  7. ↑ Mishna Brurah 272:25
  8. ↑ Mishna Brurah 272:30. This seems to have been the common minhag in Ashkenaz, to make kiddush shabbat day on schnapps despite the availability of wine. See the Bach (272:10 s.v. v'ikah) who is perplexed by this minhag and attempts to justify it. See Mishna Brurah 272:29 who explains that perhaps it is because wine is expensive and kiddush shabbat day is only drabanan anyway, so we can be lenient and use schnapps and not be concerned with the Rambam's shita that is invalid for kiddush. Mishna Brurah 272:30 seems to imply that another reason to use schnapps would be if you prefer it (similar to the discussion regarding making kiddush on bread Friday night).
  9. ↑ Halachot Ketanot 1:9 writes that Chamar Medina must have alhocol and so coffee is not Chamar Medina. Yalkut Yosef 296:8 writes that one may not use coffee, tea, orange juice, or soda for Havdalah, but one if there's no wine in the city, one may use beer or cognac which are considered Chamar Medina; Chazon Ovadia, Hilchot Shabbat, Chelek 2, Page 408 specifies that coffee, tea, milk, and fruit juice are not considered chamar medina, and therefore one may not make havdalah with them. More sources can be found in Yabia Omer OC 3:19 for this approach.
    • However ashkenazi poskim are more expansive, and do not require the beverage to be alcoholic to be considered chamar medina. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare (siman 272 footnote 25) says that coffee, juice, or tea may be permitted.
  10. ↑ Mishna Brurah (272:25) says that milk is not chamar medina. Dirshu Mishna Brurah (296 ft. 15) cites Rav Shlomo Zalmen that even in a place where everyone drinks milk it still isn't chamar medina because it isn't a chashuv beverage. However, Igrot Moshe 2:75 says that in an extenuating circumstances, milk could be used as chamar medina in a place where it is common to drink. Tzitz Eliezer 8:16 and 14:42 agrees.
  11. ↑ Dirshu Mishna Brurah (296 ft. 16) cites from Rav Elyashiv that juices such as orange juice or grapefruit juice are considered chamar medina. Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare (siman 272 footnote 25) says that juice may be permitted.
  12. ↑ Igrot Moshe 2:75 says that in an extenuating circumstances, tea can be considered chamar medina. Tzitz Eliezer 8:16 and 14:42 agrees, as does Rav Avigdor Neventzahl in Biyitzchak Yikare (siman 272 footnote 25).
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