Halachot of Dating: Difference between revisions

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== Dating ==
== Dating ==
The basic halachos of dating area difficult balence. On one hand, the couple must be able to meet one another as such that they can feel comfortable establishing a home together. On the other hand, while the couple are unmarried they must be careful to abide by the full halachic restrictions of how a man and woman should behave. They cannot touch one another (shomer negiah) nor can they seclude themselves together (yichud). Further many communities have adopted different perspectives about social interaction between men and women.
The basic halachos of dating area difficult balance. On one hand, the couple must be able to meet one another as such that they can feel comfortable establishing a home together. On the other hand, while the couple are unmarried they must be careful to abide by the full halachic restrictions of how a man and woman should behave. They cannot touch one another (shomer negiah) nor can they seclude themselves together (yichud). Further many communities have adopted different perspectives about social interaction between men and women.


Because of the halachic difficulties posed by dating- different communities have established different standards on how to date.
Because of the halachic difficulties posed by dating- different communities have established different standards on how to date. Communities have traditionally relied on a matchmaker while other communities have men ask out women.  Communities also have established clear practices on the length of time dating prior to engagement.
 
Hasidish communities have adopted the practice of boshow- the family of the man accompanies him to the woman's house where they speak
 
==Number of Dates==
# A person should consult with his rebbe from yeshiva how often to go out during engagement is considered appropriate.<ref>Beer Yisrael p. 51</ref>
==Age for Marriage==
==Age for Marriage==
See [[Right Age to Marry]] page.
See [[Right Age to Marry]] page.
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==Yichud==
==Yichud==
See the [[Yichud]] page.
See the [[Yichud]] page.
# The couple should be extra vigilant in being cautious of the halachot of yichud during dating especially after engagement.<ref>Beer Yisrael p. 50</ref>
# A couple should be extra vigilant regarding the halachot of yichud during dating, especially after engagement.
# While engaged a couple shouldn’t sleep in the same house even if there’s no issue of yichud.<ref>Rama EH 55:1</ref>
# While dating or engaged, a couple should not sleep in the same house even if there’s no issue of yichud. For example, if they’re visiting one another for Shabbos, one should stay at a friend or neighbor.
# Once someone is engaged or at a point that they’re emotionally comfortable with each other to discuss private issues (libo gas ba)¸ according to many poskim they are not allowed to be alone, even if the door is open to a public domain.<ref>The Chelkat Mechokek 22:13 writes that a person who is comfortable around a certain woman is forbidden to seclude himself with her in an area open to the public. The Taz 22:9, however, disagrees and permits it. Chida (Birkei Yosef 22:6 and 245:6) proves from Shulchan Aruch and others that it is permitted but he still isn't willing to be lenient. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152:5 rules like the Chelkat Mechokek. Misgeret Hashulchan 152:10 cited by Otzar Haposkim 22:9:13 is lenient in extenuating circumstances. Nitei Gavriel (Yichud 32:7) writes that in cases of need such as with a doctor, one may be lenient unless the person is comfortable around the woman in an inappropriate sense. Tzitz Eliezer 6:40:12:4-8 is lenient. Gan Naul 8:25 seems to be lenient. He quotes the Shevet Halevi 5:23:7 and Divrei Chachamim 5:11 as permitting, while the Noda Beyehuda E.H. 2:18, Aruch Hashulchan 22:6, and Igrot Moshe E.H. 4:60 are strict</ref> If they’re actually in public or completely visible to the public there is no yichud at all. Also, having someone that breaks yichud like the man’s mother or sister, the woman’s father or brother, or a married couple is effective even for someone who is libo gas ba.<ref>In general, Igrot Moshe E.H. 2:15 holds that a daughter protects a man from yichud just like his mother, wife, or sister. This is in disagreement with the Pitchei Teshuva 22:2 who holds that these relatives do not protect from yichud with another woman, even though one is permitted to have yichud with that relative alone. Rav Soloveitchik (Nefesh Harav p. 256) agreed with Rav Moshe and applied it to a grandmother as well. Mishnat Yehoshua (Erusin v. 1 p. 73) applies this to dating.</ref>
# If a dating or engaged couple wants to enter an apartment and avoid yichud, they should leave the door to the hallway wide open and remain in a place where they're visible to the hallway.<ref>Knesset Hagedolah (Hagahot Tur E.H. 22:11) writes that a door that's open to the street only permits that room and not the upper or lower floors connected to that room. The Otzar Haposkim 22:9:5 quotes the Apei Zutrei 22:20 and Nichpeh Bkesef who agree. The Otzar Haposkim 22:9:5 quotes the Nidrei Zerizin 2:9 and Bet Shlomo O.C. 48 who write that rooms connected to a room open to the public are still subject to yichud, and only the room that is open to the public itself is permitted. On the other hand, the Ezer Mkodesh seems to be lenient. Dvar Halacha 3:9 quotes this dispute and adds that the Bet Meir is strict but the Maharsham is lenient.</ref> Going to another room in the apartment is forbidden since it isn’t common for someone to enter unannounced even if the door is actually open.<ref>Rav Schachter (oral communication)</ref> This only works at a time when people are generally walking through the hallway every few minutes but not late into the night when people aren't around.<ref>Dvar Halacha 3:5</ref>
# If a dating or engaged couple is at one of their parents’ homes and the parents are home but upstairs, there is no issue of yichud.<ref>Orchot Habayit 34:31</ref>
# A dating or engaged couple can drive together in the car on a road that cars or people pass by at least once every ten minutes. A couple should not park at night on a quiet street in order to talk to each other. <ref>Mishnat Yehoshua (Erusin v. 1 p. 62-3) quoting Rav Elyashiv, Teshuvot Vehanhagot 5:331. This approach treats a car like being outside since it is possible to see into the car windows. However, Igrot Moshe 4:65:3 was strict not to allow a man and woman to enter a car together because they could stop in a deserted area. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:91:21 and Rav Willig (cited by Rabbi Jachter) are lenient. Rav Schachter is strict but acknowledges that dating in today’s world it isn’t practical to be strict on this</ref>
# Some poskim permit going on a date to an escape room since it is observed by a camera at all times which is considered like it is open to the public.<ref>Rabbi Willig (oral communication) thought that we could be lenient since there is a camera in the room and someone is watching the cameras at all times. He added that it might not be recommended depending on the situation and the people asking. Therefore, it is appropriate to ask a Rav for each case. Rabbi Wiederblank agreed</ref> Other poskim, however, hold that it is better to avoid.<ref>Rabbi Neuberger (oral communication), Rav Aryeh Lebowitz [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/933705/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-escape-the-room-and-yichud/ (Ten Minute Halacha)]</ref>


==Revealing Information==
==Revealing Information==
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===Going to the Zoo===
===Going to the Zoo===
#Regarding Brachos when seeing certain animals see [[Bracha for an Unusual Creature]].
#Regarding Brachos when seeing certain animals see [[Bracha for an Unusual Creature]].
#(Does seeing non-kosher animals cause spiritual damage?)
===Scavenger Hunt in Barnes&Nobles===
===Scavenger Hunt in Barnes&Nobles===
#See [[Deceitful Practices#Window Shopping]]
#See [[Deceitful Practices#Window Shopping]]

Revision as of 14:22, 7 July 2024

Parental Objections

Technically, the halacha is that if parents object to a child’s shidduch, the child is not necessarily bound by that request.[1]

There are several qualifications to that statement

  1. Some say that if the parent has reasonable grounds for suspecting that the shidduch will harm their child's wellbeing, the child is bound to listen. [2]
  2. If the parents are seriously pained by the shidduch, some poskim hold that one must listen to one’s parents. [3]
  3. In any case of parental disapproval, one should consult a rabbi. Even when the halacha is that one doesn't need to obey the parents’ wishes on this issue, a wise person would certainly take his parents’ position into consideration as they usually have significantly more experience and insight.[4]

Looking at One's Date

  1. It is a mitzvah for a man to see the woman he intends to marry[5]
  2. Generally speaking it is normally fobidden for a man to look closely at a woman. However, when it comes to dating a man is permitted to look at a woman in order to see he is attracted to her.[6] However, he may not look in an inappropriate way (derech zenut).[7]
  3. Many Poskim think that it is not appropriate for a boy to demand a shidduch picture before going out.[8]

Dating

The basic halachos of dating area difficult balance. On one hand, the couple must be able to meet one another as such that they can feel comfortable establishing a home together. On the other hand, while the couple are unmarried they must be careful to abide by the full halachic restrictions of how a man and woman should behave. They cannot touch one another (shomer negiah) nor can they seclude themselves together (yichud). Further many communities have adopted different perspectives about social interaction between men and women.

Because of the halachic difficulties posed by dating- different communities have established different standards on how to date. Communities have traditionally relied on a matchmaker while other communities have men ask out women. Communities also have established clear practices on the length of time dating prior to engagement.

Age for Marriage

See Right Age to Marry page.

Yichud

See the Yichud page.

  1. A couple should be extra vigilant regarding the halachot of yichud during dating, especially after engagement.
  2. While dating or engaged, a couple should not sleep in the same house even if there’s no issue of yichud. For example, if they’re visiting one another for Shabbos, one should stay at a friend or neighbor.
  3. Once someone is engaged or at a point that they’re emotionally comfortable with each other to discuss private issues (libo gas ba)¸ according to many poskim they are not allowed to be alone, even if the door is open to a public domain.[9] If they’re actually in public or completely visible to the public there is no yichud at all. Also, having someone that breaks yichud like the man’s mother or sister, the woman’s father or brother, or a married couple is effective even for someone who is libo gas ba.[10]
  4. If a dating or engaged couple wants to enter an apartment and avoid yichud, they should leave the door to the hallway wide open and remain in a place where they're visible to the hallway.[11] Going to another room in the apartment is forbidden since it isn’t common for someone to enter unannounced even if the door is actually open.[12] This only works at a time when people are generally walking through the hallway every few minutes but not late into the night when people aren't around.[13]
  5. If a dating or engaged couple is at one of their parents’ homes and the parents are home but upstairs, there is no issue of yichud.[14]
  6. A dating or engaged couple can drive together in the car on a road that cars or people pass by at least once every ten minutes. A couple should not park at night on a quiet street in order to talk to each other. [15]
  7. Some poskim permit going on a date to an escape room since it is observed by a camera at all times which is considered like it is open to the public.[16] Other poskim, however, hold that it is better to avoid.[17]

Revealing Information

See the Lashon Hara page.

  1. It is forbidden to find something seriously negative in a shidduch.[18]
  2. If someone asks about a negative trait in a shidduch one may not lie.[19]
  3. One doesn't have to reveal negative information before going out. One should do so when the two think that they are seriously considering getting married.[20]

Following Women in the Street

See the Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender page.

  1. Even though today it isn't possible for a man not to walk behind a woman at all when walking in the street, still a person should be careful what he looks at when walking.[21]

Giving Gifts

  1. A man shouldn’t give mishloach manot to a woman or vice versa. Some explain that it isn’t an appropriate interaction, while others explain that there is a concern that people will think that they are married even though they aren’t. Some permit a man giving mishloach to a woman if his intentions are actually completely pure.[22]

Date Specific Shaylot

Paint Night, Wax sculptures

  1. See Drawing a Pasuk Respecting_Holy_Books#Writing_Pesukim
  2. See Drawing a Sun, Moon or Stars Drawing_or_Sculpting_Forbidden_Images#Sun.2C_Moon.2C_and_Stars
  3. Making a human sculptures Drawing_or_Sculpting_Forbidden_Images#Human_Images

Art Museums

  1. See Kippah

Movie

  1. See Internet,_TV,_Social_Media

Sports Games

  1. See Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender

Ice Skating, Archery

  1. See Modesty
  2. See Inappropriate Staring at the Opposite Gender
  3. Catching her if she falls see Negiah

Arcade, Casino, Bingo

  1. Regarding gambling see Minhagim_of_Chanukah#Dreidel

Going to the Zoo

  1. Regarding Brachos when seeing certain animals see Bracha for an Unusual Creature.

Scavenger Hunt in Barnes&Nobles

  1. See Deceitful Practices#Window Shopping

Hotel Lobby

  1. See Marit Ayin

Pouching a Shidduch

  1. If a couple got engaged (and they wrote up tenayim or shidduchim or didn't write anything, but made a decision to get engaged in a place where they don't write tenayim or shidduchim) it is forbidden for a man to try to date and marry that woman. Stealing a shidduch is a violation of the cherem of breaking an engagement as well as a violation of stealing something that someone else was trying to get (ani ha'mehapech b'charara).[23]
  2. If a couple got engaged and in their place they usually write up tenayim or shidduchim and they didn't yet get to do that, according to Ashkenazim it is technically permitted for a man to try to date marry that woman but a yireh shamayim would not do such a thing.[24]
  3. If a man and woman are dating and are not engaged, it is technically permitted for another man to try to date and marry that woman.[25]

Sources

  1. ↑ The Maharik (responsa 164) writes about a case where a young man’s parents don't want their son to marry a certain young woman whom he is interested in marrying. He posits three reasons why the son isn't bound by his parents’ wishes in this case. First, Kibbud Av V’em primarily means servicing a parent, but does not require listening to them in ways that don't directly benefit them. Second, Kibbud Av V’em is a mitzvah which doesn't need to come at one's own expense, and losing a potential spouse is worth more than money. Finally, since getting married is a mitzvah, a parent can't prevent a child from doing a mitzvah. Rama Y.D. 240:25 codifies this Maharik. Gra 240:36 and Chazon Ish YD 149:8 support the Maharik.
  2. ↑ Sefer Chasidim 564 writes that although parents generally cannot object to a child getting married, if the potential shidduch would be spiritually hazardous for their child, the child must listen to their parents. His proof is that Yaakov listened to Yitzchak not to marry any of the women of Kenaan. On this basis, Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 438) and Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) write that if the prospective young woman or man isn’t actually a good fit spiritually, the children certainly must listen to their parents. Yalkut Yosef clarifies that the Maharik (see next footnote) agrees with this. Rav Willig (oral communication) thought that this is a very important consideration when applying the Maharik.
  3. ↑ Meishiv Davar 2:50 says that if the parents are pained by a certain shidduch, the child should listen to them. Rav Aryeh Leib Shteinman (K'ayal Tarog Shidduchin p. 46) agrees.
  4. ↑ Rav Schachter (Mussar Shmooze on Dating min 16). Similarly, Shevet Halevi 4:124, Tzitz Eliezer 13:78, and Yalkut Yosef (Kibbud Av V’em p. 437) all hold that even though one doesn't have to listen to one's parents, he should do everything in his power to get them on his side to agree with the shidduch.
  5. ↑ Kiddushin 41a
  6. ↑ Rambam Isurei Biyah 21:3, Shulchan Aruch EH 21:3, Nitai Gavriel Shidduchim p. 84
  7. ↑ Shulchan Aruch E.H. 21:3, Shevet Halevi 5:200
  8. ↑ He quoted the Chabiner Rav, Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Moshe Heinemann, Rav Shmuel Fuerst, and Rav Chaim Kanievsky as all expressing disapproval of this practice because either it doesn't give the girl a fair chance, pictures can be deceiving, and it isn't tzanua for a girl to be giving out her picture.
  9. ↑ The Chelkat Mechokek 22:13 writes that a person who is comfortable around a certain woman is forbidden to seclude himself with her in an area open to the public. The Taz 22:9, however, disagrees and permits it. Chida (Birkei Yosef 22:6 and 245:6) proves from Shulchan Aruch and others that it is permitted but he still isn't willing to be lenient. Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 152:5 rules like the Chelkat Mechokek. Misgeret Hashulchan 152:10 cited by Otzar Haposkim 22:9:13 is lenient in extenuating circumstances. Nitei Gavriel (Yichud 32:7) writes that in cases of need such as with a doctor, one may be lenient unless the person is comfortable around the woman in an inappropriate sense. Tzitz Eliezer 6:40:12:4-8 is lenient. Gan Naul 8:25 seems to be lenient. He quotes the Shevet Halevi 5:23:7 and Divrei Chachamim 5:11 as permitting, while the Noda Beyehuda E.H. 2:18, Aruch Hashulchan 22:6, and Igrot Moshe E.H. 4:60 are strict
  10. ↑ In general, Igrot Moshe E.H. 2:15 holds that a daughter protects a man from yichud just like his mother, wife, or sister. This is in disagreement with the Pitchei Teshuva 22:2 who holds that these relatives do not protect from yichud with another woman, even though one is permitted to have yichud with that relative alone. Rav Soloveitchik (Nefesh Harav p. 256) agreed with Rav Moshe and applied it to a grandmother as well. Mishnat Yehoshua (Erusin v. 1 p. 73) applies this to dating.
  11. ↑ Knesset Hagedolah (Hagahot Tur E.H. 22:11) writes that a door that's open to the street only permits that room and not the upper or lower floors connected to that room. The Otzar Haposkim 22:9:5 quotes the Apei Zutrei 22:20 and Nichpeh Bkesef who agree. The Otzar Haposkim 22:9:5 quotes the Nidrei Zerizin 2:9 and Bet Shlomo O.C. 48 who write that rooms connected to a room open to the public are still subject to yichud, and only the room that is open to the public itself is permitted. On the other hand, the Ezer Mkodesh seems to be lenient. Dvar Halacha 3:9 quotes this dispute and adds that the Bet Meir is strict but the Maharsham is lenient.
  12. ↑ Rav Schachter (oral communication)
  13. ↑ Dvar Halacha 3:5
  14. ↑ Orchot Habayit 34:31
  15. ↑ Mishnat Yehoshua (Erusin v. 1 p. 62-3) quoting Rav Elyashiv, Teshuvot Vehanhagot 5:331. This approach treats a car like being outside since it is possible to see into the car windows. However, Igrot Moshe 4:65:3 was strict not to allow a man and woman to enter a car together because they could stop in a deserted area. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:91:21 and Rav Willig (cited by Rabbi Jachter) are lenient. Rav Schachter is strict but acknowledges that dating in today’s world it isn’t practical to be strict on this
  16. ↑ Rabbi Willig (oral communication) thought that we could be lenient since there is a camera in the room and someone is watching the cameras at all times. He added that it might not be recommended depending on the situation and the people asking. Therefore, it is appropriate to ask a Rav for each case. Rabbi Wiederblank agreed
  17. ↑ Rabbi Neuberger (oral communication), Rav Aryeh Lebowitz (Ten Minute Halacha)
  18. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 42 citing Igrot Moshe OC 4:118, Chafetz Chaim klal 9
  19. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 42
  20. ↑ Beer Yisrael p. 43 quoting the Steipler and other gedolim, Igrot Moshe 4:118
  21. ↑ The Gemara Brachot 61a states that it is better to walk behind a lion than a women in the marketplace. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach in Minchat Shlomo 1:91 writes that today since there are as many women as there are men on the street unlike in the days of chazal it is impossible not to follow a woman in the street. He concludes that for a mitzvah or for etiquette one can be lenient to follow a woman in the street. Rabbi Willig (approx min 30) added that even though it is impossible not to walk behind women but still you need to be careful of what you see. Rav Nissim Karelitz in Chut Shani (Shabbat v. 3 p. 268) writes that nowadays when it is impossible not to walk behind a woman in the streets one should walk quickly so as not to follow a particular woman. The Leket Yosher YD p. 37 writes that it is permitted to follow a religious woman nowadays. Tzitz Eliezer 9:50 explained that today it is permitted to follow a woman in the street since it is so common it doesn't arouse inappropriate thoughts. He quotes Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach as agreeing with him. Yabia Omer OC 6:13:5 seems to agree.
    • However, Gan Naul (Tzeniyut v. 1 3:4) holds that the prohibition still applies today. He quotes Doleh Umashkeh p. 290 who records that Rav Chaim Kanievsky said that it is proper to avoid walking behind a woman today if it is possible. He also cites the Bnei Yakov siman
    21 who quotes Rav Ovadia Yosef as holding that one can be lenient since woman commonly walk the streets.
  22. ↑
    • The Mahari Barin (cited by Darkei Moshe 695:7) writes that a man shouldn’t give mishloach manot to a woman or the opposite. The Rama OC 695:4 codifies this. The Machasit Hashekel 695:15 explains that the concern that through these gifts the man will affect a questionable kiddushin with the woman isn’t an issue because there would need to be witnesses for it to be a valid kiddushin. Rather the concern is that perhaps someone seeing this interaction will think that they are married and this is a gift between them. Magen Avraham 695:15 and Mishna Brurah 695:26 concur.
    • Aruch Hashulchan 695:18 adds that the real issue is that when a man gives a woman a gift it leads to a closeness which is inappropriate. Tzemech Yehuda 3:235:4 agrees. Chashukei Chemed Megillah 4a quotes Rav Elyashiv as holding that if there’s no other choice a man could give mishloach manot to a woman if given in a manner that wouldn’t cause to closeness.
    Betzel Chochma 5:51 writes that the Rama was only concerned about kiddushin. He adds that one doesn’t have to be concerned about inappropriate interactions since one is doing a mitzvah of mishloach manot. Additionally, nowadays we are lenient to greet a woman (Rama EH 21:4) and as such we can be lenient in this regard as well. However, he advises not relying on that unless one’s intent is completely pure.
  23. ↑ Igrot Moshe EH 1:91. Rav Moshe explains that there's a cherem to break an engaged once they if they wrote up tenayim or shidduchim or if they decided to get engaged in a place where they do not write tenayim or shidduchim. In terms of ani hamehapech b'charara seemingly it should be permitted for two reasons: 1) According to Rabbenu Tam, there's no issue of ani hamehapech b'charara when dealing with something that is free. Since marrying a woman is like getting something from hefker (ownerless), stealing a fiancé is permitted. 2) According to Maharam, there's no issue of ani hamehapech b'charara before the buyer and seller decided on a price. So too, with an engagement there's no prohibition before they write the tenayim. However, Rav Moshe writes that since there's a cherem to break the engagement there's also a prohibition of ani hamehapech b'charara to steal an engaged woman. He explains that there's two approach to Rabbenu Tam. One is that something that everyone can acquire equally like hefker is not subject to ani hamehapech b'charara (Rama citing Radach). But the engaged woman is not equally available to anyone. Another reason for Rabbenu Tam, is that hefker doesn't belong to anyone so it is fine to take it (Shach citing Ramban). But with engagement since both the man and woman want to marry it is like they're married in the sense that it would be forbidden for anyone else to marry her.
  24. ↑ Igrot Moshe EH 1:91 s.v. yatza
  25. ↑ Igrot Moshe EH 1:91
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