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| ==Who can join a Zimmun== | | ==Who can join a Zimmun== |
| ===Women=== | | ===Women=== |
| # Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun.<ref>[https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.199.7?lang=he Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7], [https://www.sefaria.org/Kitzur_Shulchan_Arukh.45.22?lang=he Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22]. | | # Women who ate with a group of men who became obligated to make a zimmun are obligated to join in their zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:6, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 45:22</ref> |
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| List of sources from rishonim:
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| *Ritva ([https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid%3D14584%23p%3D1%26fitMode%3Dfitwidth%26hlts%3D%26ocr%3D%25D7%259E%25D7%25A6%25D7%2598%25D7%25A8%25D7%25A4%25D7%2595%25D7%25AA%2520%25D7%2595%25D7%259E%25D7%2596%25D7%259E%25 Chiddushim on Megillah 4a]; [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid%3D16269%23p%3D71%26fitMode%3Dfitwidth%26hlts%3D%26ocr%3D%25D7%259B%25D7%25A9%25D7%2599%25D7%25A9%2520%25D7%2596%25D7%2599%25D7%259E%25D7%2595%25D7%259F%2520%25D7%2591%25D7%2 Hilchot Brachot 7:2])
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| *[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid%3D46470%23p%3D198%26fitMode%3Dfitwidth%26hlts%3D%26ocr%3D%25D7%259E%25D7%25A6%25D7%2598%25D7%25A8%25D7%25A4%25D7%2595%25D7%25AA&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1740719330512869&usg= Raah (Brachot 45a)]
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Berakhot.47b.5?lang%3Dbi%26with%3Dall%26lang2%3Den&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1740719330513197&usg=AOvVaw3lkzsFDHz2P3x5b9RV4gVq Meiri (Brachot 47b s.v. hamishnah hashlishit) in the name of some authorities (“ויש שמוסיף בה”)]
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Ran_on_Megillah.6b.11?lang=en&lookup=%D7%94%D7%9B%D7%9C%20%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9F&with=Lexicon&lang2=en Ran (on Rif Megillah 6b s.v. hakol kesheirin)]
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| *[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=21359#p=92&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%93%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%9F%20%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%90%20%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA Smag (Aseh 27; in R' Farber's edition pg. 51)] in the name of the Ri
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_HaRosh.4.16.1?vhe%3DShe%27elot_u%27Teshuvot_haRosh,_Vilna,_1881%26lang%3Dbi&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1740719330513890&usg=AOvVaw3iu9lUfS2Q5c9VMcbIW5Td Rosh (Tshuvot HaRosh 4:16)]
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| *Peirushim Upsakim al haTorah leRabeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev ([https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai, Arachin 3a, pg. 51]-[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=81 52])
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| *Rabeinu Yehuda Kohen (cited in [https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_Maharam%2C_Prague_Edition.227?lang=bi Shu"t Maharam MiRotenburg Prague Edition #227])
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Sefer_Mitzvot_Katan.109.2?vhe=Sefer_Mitzvot_Katan,_Kopys,_1820&qh=%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%90%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%90%D7%9D%20%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%A6%D7%95 Smak Mitzva 109] (It seems that he holds it's only a ''reshut''; see Divrei Shalom ([https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9D_%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%97%D7%A7_%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99 Rav Shalom Yitzchak Mizrachi]) Orach Chaim 2:69:5 who he originally thought that the Smak holds it's obligatory, but concludes that the more correct explanation of the Smak is that it's only a ''reshut''.)
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Tosafot_on_Berakhot.45b.3.1?lang=he Tosafot on Brachot 45b s.v. shani] (as a ''reshut'', since Tosafot hold that women are entirely exempt from zimmun).
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| **However, the Maharam MiRotenburg himself ([https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_Maharam%2C_Prague_Edition.227?lang=bi ibid.]) seems to disagree with this point, although it's possible he just meant to make an argument within the assumption of his interlocutor Rabbeinu Yehuda ("לדידך" or "arguendo"-- for the sake of argument) but he himself really doesn't accept the point he's making.
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| **Tosafot Chachmei Anglia (Brachot 45b s.v. veha) seem to understand Rabbeinu Avraham ben Rav Yosef as not allowing women to join a men's zimmun ("והר"ר אברהם ב"ר יוסף הנהיג הנשים לזמן לעצמ' כשהן שלשה ואינן יכולים לסמוך על הזימון שלנו."). (This seems to be the same Rabbeinu Avraham mentioned in [https://www.sefaria.org/Tosafot_on_Berakhot.45b.3.1?lang=he Tosafot on Brachot 45b s.v. shani], although Tosafot makes no comment as to whether Rabbeinu Avraham would '''''allow''''' women to join a men's zimmun; and when Tosafot later go on to discuss women joining a men's zimmun, they make no comment that Rabbeinu Avraham would hold that women are not allowed to join a men's zimmun.)
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| <small>(See further Hilchot Yom Beyom vol. 2 10:12 footnote 22 pg 306-307 who assumes that this is only a minority opinion of the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=21359#p=92&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%93%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%9F%20%D7%93%D7%95%D7%A7%D7%90%20%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA Smag and Ri]; similarly, Rav Immanuel Molekandov in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=68385#p=271&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D%20%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D Kovetz Menorah Badarom Gilyon 58, Adar Sheini 5784, pg 271] s.v. umei’idach claims that– at least regarding it being an '''''obligation'''''– this is a minority opinion of Smag, Ri, Raah, and Ritva [all mentioned above]. Hilchot Yom Beyom’s point is contradicted by the abovementioned sources– see especially [https://www.sefaria.org/Teshuvot_HaRosh.4.16.1?lang=he Rosh (Tshuvot, 4:16)] and [https://www.sefaria.org/Tosafot_on_Berakhot.45b.3.1?lang=he Tosafot (Berakhot 45b s.v. shani)] who he explicitly mentions as having to agree with him, who explicitly say that women may be yotzei zimmun from a man. Even Rav Molekandov’s point that women shouldn't be '''''obligated''''' in such a zimmun does not have a clear basis– once there is no prohibition for women to join such a zimmun, any opinion which would obligate 3 women in zimmun should obligate women in this case too. [Although [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=60387#p=208&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%AA%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%90%20%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%95%D7%AA%D7%99%D7%94 Shaar Hatziyun’s {199:9}] logic would seem to exempt women from zimmun entirely in this case, it seems that Shaar Hatziyun only meant that it’s not logical that Chazal required women to join a men’s zimmun '''''as opposed to a women’s zimmun''''', but not that it’s not logical that women can '''''ever''''' be required to join a men’s zimmun. Otherwise, the Shaar Hatziyun’s logic would run up against an explicit Shulchan Aruch {[https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.199.7?lang=he 199:7]} based on the Smag and Ri, whose opinion the Shaar Hatziyun is currently discussing.])</small></ref>
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| # Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref> | | # Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref> |
| # Some say that if a man ate with three women, the man may lead the zimmun.<ref>[https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_III.1?lang=he Benei Banim 3:1].</ref> However, some say that this is not allowed.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach quoted in [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Volume_IV.4.9/?vhe=hebrew%7CResponsa+Benei+Banim%2C+Jerusalem+1981-2005 Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram] from Halichos Beisa. See exact quote from Halichos Beisa in Aliba Dehilcheta [https://gilyonot.jewishoffice.co.il/1pQoe7FbSchNTCCsfQX-vNYZhrJE2kHbo gilyon 33] [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=64133&st=&pgnum=93 pg 17] (see [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/151387/p/17/t/0.31053137306437261234/fs/m_hCWkf9Vli8X73f6YDWlpIcP4MMa4ZVKfhP2gX91arZ/start/6/end/9/c here] for color version of pg 17). Although Benei Banim doesn’t agree with R’ S.Z. Auerbach based on evidence from rishonim, he says it’s better not to be lenient unless necessary.</ref> <small>(See footnote for many additional sources relating to this topic.<ref>List of sources that allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women:
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| *[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16100#p=117&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9C%20%D7%9C%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sefer Hameorot (Brachot 45a, R' Blau ed., pg. 135]
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| *Raavad (brought by [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed, Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)]
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| *[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16250#p=192&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%94%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F Sefer Hapardes of Rabbeinu Asher ben R’ Chaim (R' Blau ed., pg. 176)] says that a woman may lead a zimmun for 3 men.
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| *[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2] also says that a woman may lead a zimmun for 3 men. See also [https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.38a.9?lang=he&with=Ritva Ritva on Sukka 38a s.v. tanu rabanan] who seems to say the same.
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| *There’s room to explain the Zohar as saying that 1 man can lead a zimmun of 3 women. See [https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Midrash_Rut.594?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&lang=bi Zohar Chadash on Rut (§594 on Sefaria)] and the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14248#p=336&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9C%20%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%9C%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A2%20%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%99%20%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sulam edition (pg. 133; daf 87d in the old edition)].
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| Sources that '''do not''' allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women:
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| **[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.)
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| **Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51-51]— there’s room to say that he holds that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women, since he only requires women to be yotzei from a man when there’s already 3 men making a zimmun. Seemingly even though there’s an advantage of hearing birkat hamazon from a man, this is not allowed when there’s no zimmun of 3 men. (This matter requires further study.)
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| **Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small>
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| Opinions that hold that a woman can’t be motzi men in zimmun:
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Tosafot_on_Sukkah.38a.9.1?lang=he Tosafot Sukka 38a s.v. be’emet amru] (at least as it's stated in [https://www.sefaria.org/Tosafot_on_Sukkah.38a.9.1?lang=he&p2=Piskei_Tosafot_on_Sukkah.100.1&lang2=he Piskei Tosafot there])
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| *Ran on the Rif ([https://www.sefaria.org/Ran_on_Megillah.6b.11?vhe=Vilna_Edition&lang=he Megillah 6b in dapei haRif] and [https://www.sefaria.org/Ran_on_Sukkah.19a.5?vhe=Vilna_Edition&lang=he Sukka 19a in dapei haRif])
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| *Meiri [https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Berakhot.47b.5?lang=bi&with=all&lang2=en on Brachot 47b s.v. hamishna hashlishit] and [https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Sukkah.38a.9?vhe=Meiri_on_Shas&lang=he Sukka 38a]
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| *Chachmei Provence cited by the [https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Megillah.4a.1?vhe=Meiri_on_Shas&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Meiri on Megillah 4a] (Even though there’s room to say that the Meiri himself was writing this point, as Rav Moshe Hershler seems to have understood [in [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/5281/p/20/t/17256353764821234/fs/0/start/0/end/0/c his edition of the Meiri haara 154 page 21]] it's more mashma that the Meiri is citing this from a different rishon. Even though usually the term "Chachmei Provence" is used by the Meiri in reference to the Ittur [see [https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%91%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%A6%D7%90&tab=text&tpathFilters=Talmud%20Commentary%2FRishonim%20on%20Talmud%2FMeiri&tvar=1&tsort=relevance&svar=1&ssort=relevance here] for a list of references to “Chachmei Provence” in the Meiri”] it's possible that here he's referring to a different rishon with this terminology, or that he actually is citing a statement from the Ittur which is no longer extant.
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Chiddushei_HaRa'ah_on_Berakhot.45a.7?vhe=Perush_ha-halachot_masekhet_berakhot,_Jerusalem_2007&lang=bi Raah on Brachot 45a]
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| *It seems from the words of the Sefer Hamichtam (found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=43537#p=25&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A6%D7%99%D7%90%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%90%D7%AA%20%D7%94%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%9D%20%D7%90%D7%9D%20%D7%94%D7%99%D7%95%20%D7%99%D7%95%D7%93%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%9C%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA Kovetz Shitos Kamai on Brachot 45a, vol. 3 pg 1256]) that he held that a woman can’t be motzi men in zimmun, even though it seems from his words that he did not reach a conclusive decision as to whether women are obligated in zimmun or not (therefore his opinion is relevant even according to the Shulchan Aruch ([https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.199.7?lang=bi 199:7]) who holds women are obligated in zimmun in this case where she ate with 3 men).
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| *It’s possible that this is the intention of the [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_II.369.1?ven=hebrew|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Ohr Zarua Volume II #369] (even though in [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_I.184.1?ven=hebrew|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he Ohr Zarua Volume I #184] he seems to side with the opinions that women are ''always'' exempt from zimmun, it seems that his arguments here that women can’t be motzi men in zimmun are independent of his conclusion there.)
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| *Implication of [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Hilchot Brachot 9:15 footnote 71-73)] as understood by [https://www.sefaria.org/Biur_Halacha.199.7.3?vhe=Biur_Halacha&lang=bi Beiur Halacha (199:7 s.v. veyotz’ot)]. <small>(In footnote 71 he says the reason women are obligated in zimmun only when eating with 3 men is in order to show that women can't be motzi men in birkat hamazon deoraita; in footnote 72 he says a group of 3 women can't break off from a group of 3 men to make their own zimmun, rather they must be yotzei with the men's zimmun; in footnote 73 he says that women are not allowed to respond to the men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun.)</small>
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Biur_Halacha.199.7.3?vhe=Biur_Halacha&lang=bi Beiur Halacha (199:7 s.v. veyotz’ot)]
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| *The [https://www.sefaria.org/Bach%2C_Orach_Chaim.689.3.1?lang=he Bach (Orach Chaim 689:1 s.v. uBaal haIttur katav mistabra)] says that according to the opinions that women are not obligated in birkat hamazon mideoraita, they can’t be motzi men in zimmun. (Seemingly he would say the same according to the Shulchan Aruch ([https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.186.1?lang=bi 186:1]) that there’s a doubt whether women are obligated in birkat hamazon mideoraita— see the words of the Bach and his reference to what he writes earlier [[https://www.sefaria.org/Tur%2C_Orach_Chaim.186.1?lang=bi&with=Bach&lang2=en 186:1]]).
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Shulchan_Arukh_HaRav%2C_Orach_Chayim.186.4?lang=bi Shulchan Arukh HaRav Orach Chayim 186:4]
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| *[https://www.sefaria.org/Kaf_HaChayim_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.199.24.1?lang=bi Kaf HaChayim Orach Chayim 199:24] (See further [https://www.sefaria.org/Penei_Yehoshua_on_Berakhot.45b.2?vhe=hebrew|Penei_Yehoshua,_Warsaw_1861&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Penei Yehoshua on Berakhot 45b §2] s.v. Tosafot dibbur hamatchil shani & [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Hilchot Brachot 9:15 footnote 71)] who touch on his idea in different contexts.)
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| Opinions that hold that a woman '''can''' be motzi men in zimmun:
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| **[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16250#p=192&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%A9%D7%94%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F Sefer Hapardes (Rabbeinu Asher ben R' Chaim) (R' Blau ed., pg. 176)] (mentioned earlier).
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| **[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2] and straightforward understanding of [https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.38a.9?lang=he&with=Ritva Ritva on Sukka 38a s.v. tanu rabanan] (mentioned earlier). <small>(According to the interpretation of [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_III.1.7?lang=bi Benei Banim {3:1:7 s.v. verak}] the Ritva only allows this when there are 3 women who are making a zimmun together, not when there’s 3 men and less than 3 women. However, [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=47327#p=213&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr= Maadanei Asher Hilchos Brachos, vol. 2, 68:3], [https://ph.yhb.org.il/category/%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA/05-%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F/#_te01ftn4_12 Harchavot LiPeninei Halacha– Brachot], and R’ Mordechai Leib Katzenelenbogen [in his footnotes on the Mossad Harav Kook edition of Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2 footnote 3; in Iyunim Halacha Lemaaseh at the end of the sefer, §23 pg 137] seem to understand the Ritva as allowing this even when there’s only 1 woman and 3 men.)</small>
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| **[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14336&pgnum=92 Chazon Ish (Orach Chaim 30:8)] considers this as a possibility, although he does not reach a clear conclusion on this matter. He also only considers this in a case where the men are unable to recite the bracha on their own.
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| ===Children=== | | ===Children=== |
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| * The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many Sephardi Poskim, such as the Birkei Yosef, Erech HaShulchan (199:2), Kaf HaChaim ibid, Siddur Beit Menuchah, Chessed LeAlaphim, and Yechaved Daat 4:13.</ref> | | * The Kaf HaChaim (199:30), Birkat Hashem (vol. 2 ch. 6:25), Halacha Berurah (199:13), Yalkut Yosef 199:4 (199:6 in Kitzur Shulchan Aruch), and Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) all hold say one may only use one Kattan regardless. The Birkat Hashem quotes many Sephardi Poskim, such as the Birkei Yosef, Erech HaShulchan (199:2), Kaf HaChaim ibid, Siddur Beit Menuchah, Chessed LeAlaphim, and Yechaved Daat 4:13.</ref> |
| #If a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sephardi) eat bread together, they may make a zimmun if the Sephardi leads. If they're ten total, consisting of eight Sephardim, and Ashkenazi, and a Kattan, they Sephardim may make a zimmun baShem, but the Ashkenazim should answer quietly without Hashem's name in a way that no one will notice the omission.<ref>VeZot HaBeracha (pg. 132) quotes the ruling of R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu that if a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan eat together, they may make a zimmun and the Sephardi should be Mezamen. Moreover, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach holds that if they're eight Sephardim, an Askenazi, and a Kattan, one of the Sephardim should make a zimmun BaShem, but the Ashkenazi should answer quietly without the Shem. This is also the ruling of the Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) and it's quoted in Yalkut Yosef (Heb-Eng) there.</ref> | | #If a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan (Sephardi) eat bread together, they may make a zimmun if the Sephardi leads. If they're ten total, consisting of eight Sephardim, and Ashkenazi, and a Kattan, they Sephardim may make a zimmun baShem, but the Ashkenazim should answer quietly without Hashem's name in a way that no one will notice the omission.<ref>VeZot HaBeracha (pg. 132) quotes the ruling of R' Chaim Pinchas Sheinberg and Rav Mordechai Eliyahu that if a Sephardi, Ashkenazi, and Kattan eat together, they may make a zimmun and the Sephardi should be Mezamen. Moreover, Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach holds that if they're eight Sephardim, an Askenazi, and a Kattan, one of the Sephardim should make a zimmun BaShem, but the Ashkenazi should answer quietly without the Shem. This is also the ruling of the Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) and it's quoted in Yalkut Yosef (Heb-Eng) there.</ref> |
| #Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The [https://www.sefaria.org/Prisha%2C_Orach_Chaim.199.15.1?lang=bi&with=Tur&lang2=en Perishah (199:15)] had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the [https://www.sefaria.org/Kaf_HaChayim_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.199.18.1?lang=bi Kaf HaChaim (199:18)] points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun. However, in a footnote (Birur Halacha §7) he notes that since several rishonim ([https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Berakhot.47b.5?lang=bi Meiri <small>Brachot 47b</small>], [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16100#p=117&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr= Sefer Hameorot <small>Brachot 45a</small>], [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16242#p=147&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr= Sefer Habatim <small>Hilchot Brachot Shaar 6 Siman 16</small>], [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16251#p=122&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr= Sefer Hashulchan <small>Hilchot Seuda Shaar 6</small>], and simple understanding of the Tur <small>[https://turshulchanarukh.alhatorah.org/Main/Orach_Chayyim/199.6#m7e4n6 199:6]</small>) hold that ketanim do make their own zimmun, maybe the halacha should be like them, but he does not conclusively decide this way. Rav Moshe Mordechai Karp (Hilchos Yom Beyom, vol. 2, 10:10) holds that ketanim may make their own zimmun as a ''reshut'' (optionally), '''as long as they each say their own birkat hamazon'''. [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=20024#p=100&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D%20%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D Benei Banim (3:27, pg 100, s.v. ach & s.v. verak], [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_III.27.15?ven=hebrew|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi §15]-[https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_III.27.16?ven=hebrew|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi 16] on Sefaria) implies that ketanim are allowed make a zimmun, although he says that nowadays the minhag is that ketanim don't make a zimmun. [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=68385#p=271&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A7%D7%98%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D%20%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D Rav Molekandov in Kovetz Menorah Badarom Gilyon 58, Adar Sheini 5784, pg 271]-[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=68385#p=272&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr= 272] holds that ketanim who reached the age of chinuch must make a zimmun if they eat together. Divrei Shalom ([https://he.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%9D_%D7%99%D7%A6%D7%97%D7%A7_%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99 Rav Shalom Yitzchak Mizrachi]) Orach Chaim 2:68 says that since Hashem’s name is not mentioned in their zimmun they should make a zimmun in accordance with the stringent opinions.</ref> | | #Three Ketanim who eat together may not make their own zimmun<ref>The Perishah had a Girsa in the Tur that ketanim could make their own zimmun, but the Kaf HaChaim (199:18) points out from Maamar Mordechai (199:2) and Yafeh LeLev (199:2) that the Turim printed from the times of Maran and the Bach did not have that Girsa. Neither did the Rambam or Shulchan Aruch themselves. Rav David Yosef (Halacha Berurah 199:14) says that three ketanim who eat together should not make their own zimmun.</ref> |
| # Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> | | # Ashkenazi Ketanim should still answer to a zimmun that they hear according to how much they ate with those bentching.<ref>The Piskei Teshuvot (199:5) says that they should answer as appropriate to other people's zimmun based on [[Chinuch]] if they ate together with those making a zimmun.</ref> |
| #Some say that two adult women and a female minor who eat together may make a zimmun.<ref>The [https://www.sefaria.org/Kaf_HaChayim_on_Shulchan_Arukh%2C_Orach_Chayim.199.21?lang=bi Kaf HaChaim (199:21)] sounds like they have to be three Gedolot. The Hebrew-English Yalkut Yosef in the footnotes quotes a [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=64496#p=352&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA Maayan Omer (1:9:31, pg 305; pg 338 in 5777 edition)] that says it's permissible.</ref> | | #Some say that two adult women and a female minor who eat together may make a zimmun.<ref>The Kaf HaChaim (199:21) sounds like they have to be three Gedolot. The Hebrew-English Yalkut Yosef in the footnotes quotes a Maayan Omer (pg 305) that says it's permissible.</ref> |
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| ==Safek Zimmun== | | ==Safek Zimmun== |
