https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&feed=atom&action=historyTalk:When Does Shabbat End? - Revision history2024-03-29T13:22:35ZRevision history for this page on the wikiMediaWiki 1.39.3https://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29787&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Mil according to Shulchan Aruch */2021-04-21T18:12:10Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Mil according to Shulchan Aruch</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&pgnum=78 Leket Yosher p. 79], the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&pgnum=78 Leket Yosher p. 79], the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, </del>Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, and Avudraham (Kriyat Shema) </del>who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and </ins>Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Avudraham (Kriyat Shema) implies this as well</ins>.</div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29786&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Mil according to Shulchan Aruch */2021-04-21T18:11:48Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Mil according to Shulchan Aruch</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&pgnum=78 Leket Yosher p. 79], the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&pgnum=78 Leket Yosher p. 79], the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and </del>Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, </ins>Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, and Avudraham (Kriyat Shema) </ins>who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet.</div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29781&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Mil according to Shulchan Aruch */2021-04-21T17:32:39Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Mil according to Shulchan Aruch</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the Leket Yosher p. 79, the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49438&pgnum=78 </ins>Leket Yosher p. 79<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]</ins>, the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">To clarify, Dr. Levy notes that the Gra's point that it is impossible to have 12 60-minute hours from Olot to Tzet during the equinox season and so 12 hours certainly refers to Netz until Shekiya is very compelling. Therefore, he claims that in fact the Trumat Hadeshen meant that there were 12 seasonal hours counted from Olot until Tzet. That being the case, the 40 mil spanning from Olot until Tzet would indeed be 22.5 minutes. Dr. Levy in fact says that this is indeed the opinion of the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch who adopts his approach. Even though the Gra vehemently disagreed with the approach of the Trumat Hadeshen calling it a great mistake, a wonderment, and a blunder, perhaps he too just meant that he confused people in how he wrote. Derech Yeshara disagrees. For one, Leket Yosher p. 79c certainly does not accept the Gra's interpretation in the Trumat Hadeshen, though it is not clear how he would answer the Gra's question. He seems to hold of the 18 minute mil and also calculate the 40 mil from Olot until Tzet. The Raah Brachot 26a s.v. plag and Shitah Mikubeset Brachot 27a s.v. mdrav who write that 4 mil is an hour and a fifth imply that the mil is 18 minutes and at the same calculate 40 mil from Olot until Tzet</ins>.</div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29752&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil */2021-04-16T14:37:49Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil</span></span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Orot Chaim p. 339 answers for the Rambam that in fact the real shiur mil is 18 minutes as he writes in Brachot 1:1 and the reason he works with the 24 minute mil in Pesachim 9:1 and Korban Pesach 5:8 is because that is based on walking slowly. The Rambam in fact mentions that the walking for that 15 mil is measured by walking slowly.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Orot Chaim p. 339 answers for the Rambam that in fact the real shiur mil is 18 minutes as he writes in Brachot 1:1 and the reason he works with the 24 minute mil in Pesachim 9:1 and Korban Pesach 5:8 is because that is based on walking slowly. The Rambam in fact mentions that the walking for that 15 mil is measured by walking slowly.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Mil according to Shulchan Aruch ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Unlike Dr. Levy, Derech Yeshara p. 171 proves that the Trumat Hadeshen and Shulchan Aruch actually hold that the mil is 18 minutes since the Leket Yosher p. 79, the student of the Trumat Hadeshen, says that the 40 mil is measured from Olot until Tzeit.</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29751&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil */ new section2021-04-16T14:34:59Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil: </span> new section</span></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Tanit 12a: The Gra YD 262:9 explains that fundamentally it should be permitted to eat during ben hashemashot of a rabbinic fast day, however, because we follow the opinion of Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yosi's ben hashemashot is after Rabbi Yehuda's, it is indeed forbidden to eat during the entire duration of ben hashemashot of Rabbi Yehuda. </div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Tanit 12a: The Gra YD 262:9 explains that fundamentally it should be permitted to eat during ben hashemashot of a rabbinic fast day, however, because we follow the opinion of Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yosi's ben hashemashot is after Rabbi Yehuda's, it is indeed forbidden to eat during the entire duration of ben hashemashot of Rabbi Yehuda. </div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Shabbat 21b: Maharam Alshaker 96 and Gra dispute Rabbenu Tam's assumption about the language משתקע החמה. They say that the language in fact implies the beginning of shekiya and say that one should light at the beginning of shekiya. They don't directly address the issue of lighting while it is light outside.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Shabbat 21b: Maharam Alshaker 96 and Gra dispute Rabbenu Tam's assumption about the language משתקע החמה. They say that the language in fact implies the beginning of shekiya and say that one should light at the beginning of shekiya. They don't directly address the issue of lighting while it is light outside.</div></td></tr>
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<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Contradiction in Rambam about Shiur Mil ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Orot Chaim p. 339 answers for the Rambam that in fact the real shiur mil is 18 minutes as he writes in Brachot 1:1 and the reason he works with the 24 minute mil in Pesachim 9:1 and Korban Pesach 5:8 is because that is based on walking slowly. The Rambam in fact mentions that the walking for that 15 mil is measured by walking slowly.</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29750&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Proofs for Rabbenu Tam */2021-04-16T14:31:59Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proofs for Rabbenu Tam</span></span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:31, 16 April 2021</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Zevachim 56a says that the pasuk invalidates the blood of a korban after shekiya. Why is that necessary? Isn't it clear from the Gemara Megillah that all avoda is pasul at night and once the morning hits it'll be pasul anyway. What then is added with this pasuk? Rabbenu Tam proves from here that day usually goes until the second shekiya, however, blood is invalid at the first shekiya, astronomical sunset.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Zevachim 56a says that the pasuk invalidates the blood of a korban after shekiya. Why is that necessary? Isn't it clear from the Gemara Megillah that all avoda is pasul at night and once the morning hits it'll be pasul anyway. What then is added with this pasuk? Rabbenu Tam proves from here that day usually goes until the second shekiya, however, blood is invalid at the first shekiya, astronomical sunset.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Tanit 12a which states that a tanit is not finished until shekiya clearly means the end of shekiya since it couldn't be permitted at sunset, which is still day.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Tanit 12a which states that a tanit is not finished until shekiya clearly means the end of shekiya since it couldn't be permitted at sunset, which is still day.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Shabbat 21b establishes the time for Chanuka candles to be משתקע החמה and it is impossible for that to be at sunset since there's no use in lighting a candle when it is still light outside. Rather it means lighting it at the end of the second shekiya.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>*Shabbat 21b establishes the time for Chanuka candles to be משתקע החמה and it is impossible for that to be at sunset since there's no use in lighting a candle when it is still light outside. Rather it means lighting it at the end of the second shekiya<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Answers for Rabbenu Tam's Proofs ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Zevachim 56a: The Gra mentions this gemara and finds it isn't an issue with his approach, though he doesn't clarify how. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Tanit 12a: The Gra YD 262:9 explains that fundamentally it should be permitted to eat during ben hashemashot of a rabbinic fast day, however, because we follow the opinion of Rabbi Yosi and Rabbi Yosi's ben hashemashot is after Rabbi Yehuda's, it is indeed forbidden to eat during the entire duration of ben hashemashot of Rabbi Yehuda. </ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Shabbat 21b: Maharam Alshaker 96 and Gra dispute Rabbenu Tam's assumption about the language משתקע החמה. They say that the language in fact implies the beginning of shekiya and say that one should light at the beginning of shekiya. They don't directly address the issue of lighting while it is light outside</ins>.</div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29749&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Proofs for Rabbenu Tam */ new section2021-04-16T14:28:26Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Proofs for Rabbenu Tam: </span> new section</span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:28, 16 April 2021</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 discusses why the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz is considered day if the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is also considered day. The gemara answers either that it is based on pesukim or logic that Olot Hashachar is already called day. One of the reasons presented is that just like a king when he comes to greet the people everyone in their anticipation considers it like he came even before he actually arrives. When he leaves they don't consider it like he left until he actually left. That is why both the twilight of the morning and the night are considered day. This is consistent with Rabbenu Tam and in fact the Ramban in Torat Haadam Avelut Yeshana cites this Yerushalmi as a proof for Rabbenu Tam. However, the Rashba Shabbat 35a cites the Yerushalmi as a proof against Rabbenu Tam. The Peni Moshe Brachot 1:1, the teacher of the Gra, explains the Yerushalmi according to the Gra. The Yerushalmi asked why is the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz considered day if part of the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is considered night.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 discusses why the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz is considered day if the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is also considered day. The gemara answers either that it is based on pesukim or logic that Olot Hashachar is already called day. One of the reasons presented is that just like a king when he comes to greet the people everyone in their anticipation considers it like he came even before he actually arrives. When he leaves they don't consider it like he left until he actually left. That is why both the twilight of the morning and the night are considered day. This is consistent with Rabbenu Tam and in fact the Ramban in Torat Haadam Avelut Yeshana cites this Yerushalmi as a proof for Rabbenu Tam. However, the Rashba Shabbat 35a cites the Yerushalmi as a proof against Rabbenu Tam. The Peni Moshe Brachot 1:1, the teacher of the Gra, explains the Yerushalmi according to the Gra. The Yerushalmi asked why is the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz considered day if part of the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is considered night.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Tangentially, the other reason that the Yerushalmi provides is seemingly incomprehensible according to everyone. It says that if both twilights were considered night then the day and night would be unequal. The Minchat Cohen ch. 4 emends the text and explains it as a question. However, the Mareh Panim Brachot 1:1 s.v. im explains that it doesn't mean equal; it just means discernable. Since it isn't possible to have a clear time that is comparable to tzeit hakochavim in the morning in the middle of the twilight, the Torah established olot as the beginning of the day.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>* Tangentially, the other reason that the Yerushalmi provides is seemingly incomprehensible according to everyone. It says that if both twilights were considered night then the day and night would be unequal. The Minchat Cohen ch. 4 emends the text and explains it as a question. However, the Mareh Panim Brachot 1:1 s.v. im explains that it doesn't mean equal; it just means discernable. Since it isn't possible to have a clear time that is comparable to tzeit hakochavim in the morning in the middle of the twilight, the Torah established olot as the beginning of the day.</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Proofs for Rabbenu Tam ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Zevachim 56a says that the pasuk invalidates the blood of a korban after shekiya. Why is that necessary? Isn't it clear from the Gemara Megillah that all avoda is pasul at night and once the morning hits it'll be pasul anyway. What then is added with this pasuk? Rabbenu Tam proves from here that day usually goes until the second shekiya, however, blood is invalid at the first shekiya, astronomical sunset.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Tanit 12a which states that a tanit is not finished until shekiya clearly means the end of shekiya since it couldn't be permitted at sunset, which is still day.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">*Shabbat 21b establishes the time for Chanuka candles to be משתקע החמה and it is impossible for that to be at sunset since there's no use in lighting a candle when it is still light outside. Rather it means lighting it at the end of the second shekiya.</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=29748&oldid=prevUnknown user: /* Resolving Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 for Each Approach */ new section2021-04-16T14:18:55Z<p><span dir="auto"><span class="autocomment">Resolving Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 for Each Approach: </span> new section</span></p>
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<td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:18, 16 April 2021</td>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Thank you very much [[User:YitzchakSultan]], I observe Melava Malka but had only heard recently that Orthodox Jews do the same thing -which I think is beautiful! :D I think a link in the article to [[Havdalah]] and [[Melava Malka]] would certainly be appropriate wouldn't it? [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 03:42, 18 January 2016 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Thank you very much [[User:YitzchakSultan]], I observe Melava Malka but had only heard recently that Orthodox Jews do the same thing -which I think is beautiful! :D I think a link in the article to [[Havdalah]] and [[Melava Malka]] would certainly be appropriate wouldn't it? [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 03:42, 18 January 2016 (EST)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: I agree with the idea for the links.--[[User:YitzchakSultan|YitzchakSultan]] ([[User talk:YitzchakSultan|talk]]) 00:12, 19 January 2016 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: I agree with the idea for the links.--[[User:YitzchakSultan|YitzchakSultan]] ([[User talk:YitzchakSultan|talk]]) 00:12, 19 January 2016 (EST)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">== Resolving Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 for Each Approach ==</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;"></ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Yerushalmi Brachot 1:1 discusses why the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz is considered day if the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is also considered day. The gemara answers either that it is based on pesukim or logic that Olot Hashachar is already called day. One of the reasons presented is that just like a king when he comes to greet the people everyone in their anticipation considers it like he came even before he actually arrives. When he leaves they don't consider it like he left until he actually left. That is why both the twilight of the morning and the night are considered day. This is consistent with Rabbenu Tam and in fact the Ramban in Torat Haadam Avelut Yeshana cites this Yerushalmi as a proof for Rabbenu Tam. However, the Rashba Shabbat 35a cites the Yerushalmi as a proof against Rabbenu Tam. The Peni Moshe Brachot 1:1, the teacher of the Gra, explains the Yerushalmi according to the Gra. The Yerushalmi asked why is the twilight of the morning from Olot Hashachar until Netz considered day if part of the twilight at night from Shekiya until Tzeit is considered night.</ins></div></td></tr>
<tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-side-deleted"></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">* Tangentially, the other reason that the Yerushalmi provides is seemingly incomprehensible according to everyone. It says that if both twilights were considered night then the day and night would be unequal. The Minchat Cohen ch. 4 emends the text and explains it as a question. However, the Mareh Panim Brachot 1:1 s.v. im explains that it doesn't mean equal; it just means discernable. Since it isn't possible to have a clear time that is comparable to tzeit hakochavim in the morning in the middle of the twilight, the Torah established olot as the beginning of the day.</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=27458&oldid=prevUnknown user: YitzchakSultan moved page Talk:When does Shabbos end to Talk:When Does Shabbat End?2020-07-22T20:04:32Z<p>YitzchakSultan moved page <a href="/index.php?title=Talk:When_does_Shabbos_end" class="mw-redirect" title="Talk:When does Shabbos end">Talk:When does Shabbos end</a> to <a href="/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F" title="Talk:When Does Shabbat End?">Talk:When Does Shabbat End?</a></p>
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</td></tr></table>Unknown userhttps://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Talk:When_Does_Shabbat_End%3F&diff=18122&oldid=prevYitzchakSultan at 05:12, 19 January 20162016-01-19T05:12:01Z<p></p>
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<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br/></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Thank you very much [[User:YitzchakSultan]], I observe Melava Malka but had only heard recently that Orthodox Jews do the same thing -which I think is beautiful! :D I think a link in the article to [[Havdalah]] and [[Melava Malka]] would certainly be appropriate wouldn't it? [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 03:42, 18 January 2016 (EST)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>:Thank you very much [[User:YitzchakSultan]], I observe Melava Malka but had only heard recently that Orthodox Jews do the same thing -which I think is beautiful! :D I think a link in the article to [[Havdalah]] and [[Melava Malka]] would certainly be appropriate wouldn't it? [[User:MishnaQaraite|MishnaQaraite]] ([[User talk:MishnaQaraite|talk]]) 03:42, 18 January 2016 (EST)</div></td></tr>
<tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: I agree with the idea for the links.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>: I agree with the idea for the links.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--[[User:YitzchakSultan|YitzchakSultan]] ([[User talk:YitzchakSultan|talk]]) 00:12, 19 January 2016 (EST)</ins></div></td></tr>
</table>YitzchakSultan