Socializing with Non-Jews: Difference between revisions
From Halachipedia
m
Text replacement - "Sepharadi" to "Sephardi"
MordechaiD (talk | contribs) m (→Where) |
m (Text replacement - "Sepharadi" to "Sephardi") |
||
| Line 4: | Line 4: | ||
===What Drinks Are Included=== | ===What Drinks Are Included=== | ||
# "Sheichar" in the times of the Talmud referred primarily to date beer, but the general position of the Rishonim is that it applies to grain based beer, as well. Some are lenient and that seems to have been the custom in Ashkenaz, so Ashkenazim can rely on the Mordechai and Rama who hold that it is specifically date beer.<ref>Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. utravayhu, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1, Bach Yoreh Deah 114 who recommends being strict not to have any beer with non-Jews. Zivchei Tzedek 114:1, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> | # "Sheichar" in the times of the Talmud referred primarily to date beer, but the general position of the Rishonim is that it applies to grain based beer, as well. Some are lenient and that seems to have been the custom in Ashkenaz, so Ashkenazim can rely on the Mordechai and Rama who hold that it is specifically date beer.<ref>Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. utravayhu, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1, Bach Yoreh Deah 114 who recommends being strict not to have any beer with non-Jews. Zivchei Tzedek 114:1, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> Sephardim are stringent.<ref>Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Zivchei Tzedek 114:8, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:11. See Darkei Teshvuah 114:5 for some further explanations of the Rama.</ref> | ||
# Similarly, a honey drink is included in the prohibition according to the strict opinion.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1. See Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:1 and Pri Toar 114:1 who debate whether or not this gezerah is static or dynamic, respectively. i.e. are the examples set in stone (according to the Pri Chadash) or is there room for the gezerah's reach to expand and include or exclude additional drinks depending on cultural norms (Pri Toar, according to [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/895256/rabbi-dovid-cohen-crc-/alcoholic-beverages-2-siman-114-sif-1b-drinking-in-a-non-jew-s-bar-or-home-source-of-the-prohibition-which-locations-which-beverages-/ Rav Dovid Cohen]’s interpretation). See Mizmor leDavid ad loc who argues that since the whole din is at most MiDeRabbanan and has some fundamental aspects as a "minhag," meaning it was never proscribed by Beit Din, there's a lot of room to employ the axiom of Safek DeRabbanan lekullah.</ref> | # Similarly, a honey drink is included in the prohibition according to the strict opinion.<ref>Shulchan Aruch and Rama Yoreh Deah 114:1. See Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:1 and Pri Toar 114:1 who debate whether or not this gezerah is static or dynamic, respectively. i.e. are the examples set in stone (according to the Pri Chadash) or is there room for the gezerah's reach to expand and include or exclude additional drinks depending on cultural norms (Pri Toar, according to [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/895256/rabbi-dovid-cohen-crc-/alcoholic-beverages-2-siman-114-sif-1b-drinking-in-a-non-jew-s-bar-or-home-source-of-the-prohibition-which-locations-which-beverages-/ Rav Dovid Cohen]’s interpretation). See Mizmor leDavid ad loc who argues that since the whole din is at most MiDeRabbanan and has some fundamental aspects as a "minhag," meaning it was never proscribed by Beit Din, there's a lot of room to employ the axiom of Safek DeRabbanan lekullah.</ref> | ||
# Drinks that are uncommon are not included in this prohibition.<ref>Rambam Hilchot Maachalot Assurot 17:11 (Kesef Mishneh ad loc adds that they’re not called Sheichar), Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:16, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Torat HaBayit 5:1, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:3</ref> According to some, anything not common in the times of Chazal can not be added later to the prohibition, even if it becomes more common.<ref>Pri Toar 114:3, Zivchei Tzedek 114:14, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:17</ref> | # Drinks that are uncommon are not included in this prohibition.<ref>Rambam Hilchot Maachalot Assurot 17:11 (Kesef Mishneh ad loc adds that they’re not called Sheichar), Tosafot Avodah Zarah 31b, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:16, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Torat HaBayit 5:1, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:3</ref> According to some, anything not common in the times of Chazal can not be added later to the prohibition, even if it becomes more common.<ref>Pri Toar 114:3, Zivchei Tzedek 114:14, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:17</ref> | ||
| Line 19: | Line 19: | ||
===Where=== | ===Where=== | ||
# The Gemara tells how one Amora would take the sheichar out the door of the Non-Jew's home in order to drink it, while a different Amora would go all the way back home.<ref>Avodah Zarah 31b.</ref> At that point, the concern for intermarriage no longer applies.<ref>Rif, Rabbeinu Chananel, Ramban, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh 2:15, Ran, and Tosafot Rid ad loc, Beit Yosef Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> In practice, one can be lenient and drink once he has fully exited the place of sale, but there is definitely room to follow the second opinion either due to interest in being stringent or because the Halacha follows it.<ref>Most authorities (Rif, Tosafot, Rashba) argue that the second Amora was only acting stringently on himself, but the Rambam (Maachalot Assurot 17:10) took him more seriously and holds like him. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1 presents the language of the Rambam, but Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:3 and Darkei Teshuva 114:3 disagree. In the Pri Chadash's view, the second, more stringent Amora only went all the way home because he was a regular. A person who doesn't go regularly can even drink in the doorway of the place of sale. Mizmor leDavid (Pardo, ad loc.), Chochmat Adam 66:14, Aruch HaShulchan Yoreh Deah 114:10, and Zivchei Tzedek 114:3 argue back in favor of Shulchan Aruch's ruling and note that the Rama doesn't even disagree. However, the Shulchan Gavoah interprets Rambam and, by extension, Shulchan Aruch to not be literal in their insistence on going all the way home.</ref> | # The Gemara tells how one Amora would take the sheichar out the door of the Non-Jew's home in order to drink it, while a different Amora would go all the way back home.<ref>Avodah Zarah 31b.</ref> At that point, the concern for intermarriage no longer applies.<ref>Rif, Rabbeinu Chananel, Ramban, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah, Rosh 2:15, Ran, and Tosafot Rid ad loc, Beit Yosef Yoreh Deah 114:1</ref> In practice, one can be lenient and drink once he has fully exited the place of sale, but there is definitely room to follow the second opinion either due to interest in being stringent or because the Halacha follows it.<ref>Most authorities (Rif, Tosafot, Rashba) argue that the second Amora was only acting stringently on himself, but the Rambam (Maachalot Assurot 17:10) took him more seriously and holds like him. Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1 presents the language of the Rambam, but Pri Chadash Yoreh Deah 114:3 and Darkei Teshuva 114:3 disagree. In the Pri Chadash's view, the second, more stringent Amora only went all the way home because he was a regular. A person who doesn't go regularly can even drink in the doorway of the place of sale. Mizmor leDavid (Pardo, ad loc.), Chochmat Adam 66:14, Aruch HaShulchan Yoreh Deah 114:10, and Zivchei Tzedek 114:3 argue back in favor of Shulchan Aruch's ruling and note that the Rama doesn't even disagree. However, the Shulchan Gavoah interprets Rambam and, by extension, Shulchan Aruch to not be literal in their insistence on going all the way home.</ref> | ||
# Therefore, even in a kosher restaurant, if it's owned by a non-Jew, a | # Therefore, even in a kosher restaurant, if it's owned by a non-Jew, a Sephardi<ref>see the leniency for Ashkenazim above</ref> may not have a beer at the bar; rather, he must take it and sit down at a table in the other room.<ref>[https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/895256/rabbi-dovid-cohen-crc-/alcoholic-beverages-2-siman-114-sif-1b-drinking-in-a-non-jew-s-bar-or-home-source-of-the-prohibition-which-locations-which-beverages-/ R' Dovid Cohen (cRc)]</ref> | ||
# One who is staying overnight in a Non-Jews home (such as in an inn or hotel), and one who is hosting the Non-Jew in his home, however, can be lenient, because of Eivah. The prohibition preventing intermarriage applies only in the context of a drinking party in the store or regularly in the Non-Jew's home.<ref>Sefer HaTerumah 158, Tosfot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. Utravayhu, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah and Ritva ad loc, Ohr Zarua Avodah Zarah 163, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:15 adds that "Gedolei Eretz HaEey (England) were lenient, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Hagahot Maimoniot, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Kenesset HaGedolah Hagahot Beit Yosef 114:10, Zivchei Tzedek 114:6-7, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:7</ref> | # One who is staying overnight in a Non-Jews home (such as in an inn or hotel), and one who is hosting the Non-Jew in his home, however, can be lenient, because of Eivah. The prohibition preventing intermarriage applies only in the context of a drinking party in the store or regularly in the Non-Jew's home.<ref>Sefer HaTerumah 158, Tosfot Avodah Zarah 31b s.v. Utravayhu, Talmidei Rabbeinu Yonah and Ritva ad loc, Ohr Zarua Avodah Zarah 163, Rosh Avodah Zarah 2:15 adds that "Gedolei Eretz HaEey (England) were lenient, Mordechai Avodah Zarah 819, Hagahot Maimoniot, Tur and Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah 114:1, Kenesset HaGedolah Hagahot Beit Yosef 114:10, Zivchei Tzedek 114:6-7, Kaf HaChaim Yoreh Deah 114:7</ref> | ||
# In other words, if one is participating in a fashion which is both "aray" (informal, unestablished) and "akrai" (seldom, three or fewer times), it is permissible. Meaning, drinking in an established fashion ("keva" instead of "aray") even once is a problem, and more than three times (ragil) even informally (be'akrai) are still problematic. | # In other words, if one is participating in a fashion which is both "aray" (informal, unestablished) and "akrai" (seldom, three or fewer times), it is permissible. Meaning, drinking in an established fashion ("keva" instead of "aray") even once is a problem, and more than three times (ragil) even informally (be'akrai) are still problematic. | ||
