Sharp Foods: Difference between revisions
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===Cut with Meat Knife and Cooked or Fried in Dairy Pot=== | ===Cut with Meat Knife and Cooked or Fried in Dairy Pot=== | ||
# If the sharp food is cut with a meat knife or cooked in a meat pot and then cooked in a dairy pot or with a dairy spatula or utensil the sharp food is considered not kosher as well as the dairy pot, and the spatula or utensil need koshering. This is true even if the dairy pot, spatula, or utensil is eino ben yomo. This is also true of the opposite case, such as a sharp food cut with a dairy knife.<ref>Dvar Charif 10:13 | # If the sharp food is cut with a meat knife or cooked in a meat pot and then cooked in a dairy pot or with a dairy spatula or utensil the sharp food is considered not kosher as well as the dairy pot, and the spatula or utensil need koshering. This is true even if the dairy pot, spatula, or utensil is eino ben yomo. This is also true of the opposite case, such as a sharp food cut with a dairy knife.<ref>Dvar Charif 10:13 p. 185 based on Rama 95:2</ref> | ||
#This is also true if the sharp food cut with a meat knife is fried in a dairy pan with some oil.<ref>Dvar Charif 10:12 | #This is also true if the sharp food cut with a meat knife is fried in a dairy pan with some oil.<ref>Dvar Charif 10:12 p. 185</ref> | ||
===Cut with Meat Knife and | |||
===Cut with Meat Knife and Added to Parve Food=== | |||
# If the sharp food is cut with a meat knife or cooked in a meat pot and then it is cooked with another food, if that second food is mixed with milk there is a dispute if the second food with milk is permitted (''nat bar nat bar nat'').<ref>Badei Hashulchan 96:5 quotes that the Pri Megadim is strict since we treat nat bar nat of a dvar charif like one nat so too with three nat's. (Commonly this is known as the opinion of the Even Haozer YD 96.) However, Rabbi Akiva Eiger argues.</ref> For a case of need it is permitted.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 96:5</ref> | # If the sharp food is cut with a meat knife or cooked in a meat pot and then it is cooked with another food, if that second food is mixed with milk there is a dispute if the second food with milk is permitted (''nat bar nat bar nat'').<ref>Badei Hashulchan 96:5 quotes that the Pri Megadim is strict since we treat nat bar nat of a dvar charif like one nat so too with three nat's. (Commonly this is known as the opinion of the Even Haozer YD 96.) However, Rabbi Akiva Eiger argues.</ref> For a case of need it is permitted.<ref>Badei Hashulchan 96:5</ref> | ||
===Cut with Meat Knife and | ===Cut with Meat Knife and Added to a Parve Soup in Dairy Pot=== | ||
# If an onion was cut with a meat knife and put into a parve soup cooking in a dairy pot that wasn't used within 24 hours for dairy the pot is permitted and the food shouldn't be eaten with dairy.<ref>Dvar Charif p. 179 is lenient since it is nat bar nat of hetera in the pot since it is eino ben yomo. Even for the minhag of the Rama 94:5 it isn't necessary to be strict since we can include the opinion that onions aren't charif.</ref> | # If an onion was cut with a meat knife and put into a parve soup cooking in a dairy pot that wasn't used within 24 hours for dairy the pot is permitted and the food shouldn't be eaten with dairy.<ref>Dvar Charif p. 179 is lenient since it is nat bar nat of hetera in the pot since it is eino ben yomo. Even for the minhag of the Rama 94:5 it isn't necessary to be strict since we can include the opinion that onions aren't charif.</ref> | ||
# If an onion was cut with a meat knife and put into a parve soup cooked in a dairy pot that was used within 24 hours for dairy, some say that the pot is permitted and the food shouldn't be eaten with dairy.<ref>Dvar Charif p. 176 Chedrei Deah 96 and Maharil Diskin 14 based on the opinion of Shulchan Aruch 95:3 that nat bar nat of milk and meat meeting in the water is permitted as well as the Maharam that onions aren't sharp.</ref> But many are strict.<ref>Dvar Charif p. 177 citing Yad Yehuda Pirush Haaruch 95:16 arguing that we can't be lenient based on the Shulchan Aruch 95:3 since the Rama disagrees with that completely.</ref> | # If an onion was cut with a meat knife and put into a parve soup cooked in a dairy pot that was used within 24 hours for dairy, some say that the pot is permitted and the food shouldn't be eaten with dairy.<ref>Dvar Charif p. 176 Chedrei Deah 96 and Maharil Diskin 14 based on the opinion of Shulchan Aruch 95:3 that nat bar nat of milk and meat meeting in the water is permitted as well as the Maharam that onions aren't sharp.</ref> But many are strict.<ref>Dvar Charif p. 177 citing Yad Yehuda Pirush Haaruch 95:16 arguing that we can't be lenient based on the Shulchan Aruch 95:3 since the Rama disagrees with that completely.</ref> | ||
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#An onion that cut with a meat knife and then cooked in a parve dry dish, such as frying onions with fish, there is a dispute whether the pot is now meat.<ref>according to the Magen Avraham the onion gives off a single taste of meat into the pot, however, according to the Even Haozer the onion gives off the nat bar nat taste into the pot. (He adds the Chavot Daat 122 as well specifically regarding when the onion was cut with a meat knife and not fried in a meat pot.)</ref> | #An onion that cut with a meat knife and then cooked in a parve dry dish, such as frying onions with fish, there is a dispute whether the pot is now meat.<ref>according to the Magen Avraham the onion gives off a single taste of meat into the pot, however, according to the Even Haozer the onion gives off the nat bar nat taste into the pot. (He adds the Chavot Daat 122 as well specifically regarding when the onion was cut with a meat knife and not fried in a meat pot.)</ref> | ||
===Cut with Dairy Knife and | ===Cut with Dairy Knife and Added to a Meat Soup=== | ||
# If a dairy knife is used to cut an onion and it is then put in a meat food if that meat food is liquidy such as a soup and is sixty times the width of the knife the entire mixture and onion is permitted.<ref>The Shulchan Aruch YD 94:6 writes that if vegetables absorb taste of meat and they are then cooked in a milk pot if it can be ascertained how much meat was absorbed in the vegetables, if in the pot there's sixty times the meat everything is permitted. The Rama explains that we don't say that the meat taste should expand to the size of the vegetables since they are all permitted. Maharam Lublin 28 writes that this principle is also true in a case of an onion cooked with a meat knife that is cooked with milk that if there's sixty times the meat that the knife absorbed in the milk it is permitted. Shach 94:23 codifies this. Rabbi Akiva Eiger 94:7 questions this as Shulchan Aruch implies that only if the food is cooked in a milk pot is the vegetables permitted but not if it is cooked in milk. His reasoning is that once milk is absorbed into the vegetables it becomes forbidden. </ref> | # If a dairy knife is used to cut an onion and it is then put in a meat food if that meat food is liquidy such as a soup and is sixty times the width of the knife the entire mixture and onion is permitted.<ref>The Shulchan Aruch YD 94:6 writes that if vegetables absorb taste of meat and they are then cooked in a milk pot if it can be ascertained how much meat was absorbed in the vegetables, if in the pot there's sixty times the meat everything is permitted. The Rama explains that we don't say that the meat taste should expand to the size of the vegetables since they are all permitted. Maharam Lublin 28 writes that this principle is also true in a case of an onion cooked with a meat knife that is cooked with milk that if there's sixty times the meat that the knife absorbed in the milk it is permitted. Shach 94:23 codifies this. Rabbi Akiva Eiger 94:7 questions this as Shulchan Aruch implies that only if the food is cooked in a milk pot is the vegetables permitted but not if it is cooked in milk. His reasoning is that once milk is absorbed into the vegetables it becomes forbidden. </ref> | ||
===Fried in a Meat Pot and Added to a Parve Soup=== | ===Fried in a Meat Pot and Added to a Parve Soup=== | ||
#If onions were fried in a meat pot and then added to a soup, that soup should be treated as meat. Even though at this point the onions aren't considered sharp since they finished frying they still have their meat taste from when they were frying in the meat pot. Since they were added to a soup the soup should be considered meat and may not be eaten with milk.<ref>Dvar Charif 3:6. He cites Yad Yehuda 95:16 and Darkei Teshuva 95:39 but writes that this is obvious.</ref> | #If onions were fried in a meat pot and then added to a soup, that soup should be treated as meat. Even though at this point the onions aren't considered sharp since they finished frying they still have their meat taste from when they were frying in the meat pot. Since they were added to a soup the soup should be considered meat and may not be eaten with milk.<ref>Dvar Charif 3:6. He cites Yad Yehuda 95:16 and Darkei Teshuva 95:39 but writes that this is obvious.</ref> | ||
#If onions were fried in a meat pot and then added to a soup and then removed from the soup there is a dispute if the soup is considered meat.<ref>Dvar Charif ch. 3 fnt. 28 writes that according to those who hold that the onion which accepted meat taste only gives off a weak taste then there is only nat bar nat in the soup. If milk is then mixed into the soup it is still kosher. Or if the soup is reheated in a dairy pot it is still kosher. However, according to the Magen Avraham 451:31 the onion gives off a strong taste (one noten taam). Then the soup is like it was cooked with meat and if milk is added or cooked in a meat pot is a problem. | #If onions were fried in a meat pot and then added to a soup and then removed from the soup there is a dispute if the soup is considered meat.<ref>Dvar Charif ch. 3 fnt. 28 writes that according to those who hold that the onion which accepted meat taste only gives off a weak taste then there is only nat bar nat in the soup. If milk is then mixed into the soup it is still kosher. Or if the soup is reheated in a dairy pot it is still kosher. However, according to the Magen Avraham 451:31 the onion gives off a strong taste (one noten taam). Then the soup is like it was cooked with meat and if milk is added or cooked in a meat pot is a problem. Shach 95:4 holds that parve non-charif food fried in a meat pot is considered a primary taam of meat and not nat bar nat. However, Pri Chadash 95:5 and Minchat Yakov 57:3 disagree. See Chachmat Adam 48:1, Bear Yitzchak YD 8. | ||
* In Dvar Charif ch. 10 fnt. 6 he cites a dispute between the Pri Megadim SD 96:2 and Rabbi Akiva Eiger in his comments to Pri Megadim. Pri Megadim holds that if onions are cut with a meat knife they're considered meat, and it continues to impart meat taste from food to food, even if they're mixed into one food, and then that food into another food. Dvar Charif explains that nat bar nat doesn't apply to foods because they impart their taste completely into the other food. Rabbi Akiva Eiger disagrees and holds that nat bar nat applies as long as one utensil is involved. We consider the onions like the utensil but not having greater taste that the utensil. Since the utensil could only make the other food nat bar nat, the onions are bound by the same limit. </ref> | |||
===Fried in a Meat Pot and Mixed with Dairy Spatula=== | ===Fried in a Meat Pot and Mixed with Dairy Spatula=== | ||
#If onions were fried in a meat pot and after they were finished frying they were mixed with an eino ben yomo dairy spatula, the spatula should be kashered.<ref>Dvar Charif siman 12:2:6 writes that whether the onions which got the taste of the meat from the pot can transfer it to the spatula is a discussion if nat bar nat is a problem when it involves 2 kelim. Here the meat taste went (1) from the meat to the pot, (2) then to the onions, and (3) then to the spatula. Even though we view a nat bar nat of meat in the onions as one taam, still in the spatula it is nat bar nat with 2 kelim. Bottom line, he says that although there's many factors to permit nat bar nat with 2 kelim after the fact, in practice we should be strict to kasher. Certainly the eino ben yomo spatula needs kashering like in the Rama 94:5. Also, the parve spatula doesn't really have that chumra, nonetheless it should be kashered lest it be used in the future for a dvar charif which would bring out a taste of nat bar nat with 2 kelim which isn't permitted initially.</ref> | #If onions were fried in a meat pot and after they were finished frying they were mixed with an eino ben yomo dairy spatula, the spatula should be kashered.<ref>Dvar Charif siman 12:2:6 writes that whether the onions which got the taste of the meat from the pot can transfer it to the spatula is a discussion if nat bar nat is a problem when it involves 2 kelim. Here the meat taste went (1) from the meat to the pot, (2) then to the onions, and (3) then to the spatula. Even though we view a nat bar nat of meat in the onions as one taam, still in the spatula it is nat bar nat with 2 kelim. Bottom line, he says that although there's many factors to permit nat bar nat with 2 kelim after the fact, in practice we should be strict to kasher. Certainly the eino ben yomo spatula needs kashering like in the Rama 94:5. Also, the parve spatula doesn't really have that chumra, nonetheless it should be kashered lest it be used in the future for a dvar charif which would bring out a taste of nat bar nat with 2 kelim which isn't permitted initially.</ref> | ||
