Difference between revisions of "Seuda Shelishit"

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# The earliest time to fulfill Seudat Shelishit is from 6 and a 1/2 hours (Shaot Zmaniot) into the day. <ref>S"A 291:2, Kitzur S"A 77:16, Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402. The Behag quoted by the Ran [[Shabbat]] 43b "tanu rabanan" says that it could be eaten at any time of the day, but Tosfot [[Shabbat]] 118a "bimincha" and Rosh [[Shabbat]] 16:5 say that it is specifically at the start of mincha gedola. Shulchan Aruch rules like Tosfot and the Rosh. Aruch Hashulchan 291:3 says that you don't fulfill your obligation if you eat earlier than that. </ref> If one began before the time and continued and ate at least a kezayit after the time he does fulfill his obligation for seuda shlishit. <ref> Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402. Aruch Hashulchan 291:6 says also that if one began before mid-day and had in mind to continue until after mid-day and fulfill his obligation then he does fulfill it. </ref>
 
# The earliest time to fulfill Seudat Shelishit is from 6 and a 1/2 hours (Shaot Zmaniot) into the day. <ref>S"A 291:2, Kitzur S"A 77:16, Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402. The Behag quoted by the Ran [[Shabbat]] 43b "tanu rabanan" says that it could be eaten at any time of the day, but Tosfot [[Shabbat]] 118a "bimincha" and Rosh [[Shabbat]] 16:5 say that it is specifically at the start of mincha gedola. Shulchan Aruch rules like Tosfot and the Rosh. Aruch Hashulchan 291:3 says that you don't fulfill your obligation if you eat earlier than that. </ref> If one began before the time and continued and ate at least a kezayit after the time he does fulfill his obligation for seuda shlishit. <ref> Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402. Aruch Hashulchan 291:6 says also that if one began before mid-day and had in mind to continue until after mid-day and fulfill his obligation then he does fulfill it. </ref>
 
# The Minhag is to eat Seudat Shelishit between Mincha and Maariv/Arvit. <ref> Rama 291:2. Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402-403 Rabbeinu Tam quoted by the Tosfot Pesachim 105a "vihani milei", as well as the Rosh [[Shabbat]] 10:13 say that one should eat before saying mincha because it is forbidden to drink water between mincha and arvit on shabbat because drinking between mincha and arvit could cause harm to the souls that leave after shabbat. Rambam Hilchot [[Shabbat]] 30:10 writes that it is best to eat it after saying mincha and the hagahot maimoniot hilchot shabbat 30:20 agrees and quotes a different version of rabbeinu tam. The Rama quotes both opinions and says that the minhag is to do like the Rambam. The Magen Avraham 291:5 says this is because of the prohibition to eat before davening mincha. Aruch Hashulchan 291:4 also says the minhag is that way also. </ref> If one is unable to have it after mincha one should have it before mincha. <ref> Aruch HaShulchan 291:4. Mishna Berura 291:11 says to make sure to eat before the time of mincha ketana arrives. Yalkut Yosef Shabbat volume 1 page 402 says also that you fulfill your obligation but should try to get somebody to remind you to say mincha if you are going to eat before saying it. </ref>
 
# The Minhag is to eat Seudat Shelishit between Mincha and Maariv/Arvit. <ref> Rama 291:2. Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402-403 Rabbeinu Tam quoted by the Tosfot Pesachim 105a "vihani milei", as well as the Rosh [[Shabbat]] 10:13 say that one should eat before saying mincha because it is forbidden to drink water between mincha and arvit on shabbat because drinking between mincha and arvit could cause harm to the souls that leave after shabbat. Rambam Hilchot [[Shabbat]] 30:10 writes that it is best to eat it after saying mincha and the hagahot maimoniot hilchot shabbat 30:20 agrees and quotes a different version of rabbeinu tam. The Rama quotes both opinions and says that the minhag is to do like the Rambam. The Magen Avraham 291:5 says this is because of the prohibition to eat before davening mincha. Aruch Hashulchan 291:4 also says the minhag is that way also. </ref> If one is unable to have it after mincha one should have it before mincha. <ref> Aruch HaShulchan 291:4. Mishna Berura 291:11 says to make sure to eat before the time of mincha ketana arrives. Yalkut Yosef Shabbat volume 1 page 402 says also that you fulfill your obligation but should try to get somebody to remind you to say mincha if you are going to eat before saying it. </ref>
#Although it is forbidden to begin eating after sunset until one says havdala, <ref> Shulchan Aruch 291:1 </ref> and it is definitely preferable to eat before sunset, some poskim give extra time to begin the meal if one hasn't yet eaten seuda shlishit.
+
#Although it is forbidden to begin eating after sunset until one says havdala, <ref> Shulchan Aruch 291:1, Rif Pesachim 21b. </ref> and it is definitely preferable to eat before sunset, <ref> Mishna Berura 299:1, Magen Avraham 299:1. See Shmirat Shabbat Kihilchita chapter 56 note 15 where he says that the idea that one should eat at least a kezayit of bread after tzet hakochavim on friday night quoted in Mishna Berurah 267:5, because there is an opinion that says you cannot fulfill a seudat shabbat during tosefet shabbat, should carry over to seudat shlishit, and therefore to satisfy this opinion one should be stringent and eat prior to sunset. </ref> some poskim give extra time to begin the meal if one hasn't yet eaten seuda shlishit. <ref> Shaar Hatziyun 299:2 gives two reasons for this. First, he says one can rely on the opinion of the Taz 299:1 who thinks that the Rosh Pesachim 12:10 allows eating until nightfall since there is a potential fulfillment of a mitzva. Second, the potential fulfillment of the mitzvah of seudah shlishit should override the potential prohibition of eating during bein hashimashot. </ref>
*Mishna Berura 299:1 says that if one hasn't yet eaten the meal or is really starving then one can still eat until a half hour before tzet hakovachim.
+
*Mishna Berura 299:1 says that if one hasn't yet eaten the meal or is really starving then one can still eat until a half hour before tzet hakovachim. R. Avraham Chaim Naeh in Ketzot HaShulchan (chapter 94 note 6), notes that Mishna Berurah's ruling that one may eat until a half hour prior to nightfall is following the opinion of Rabbeinu Tam that nightfall is seventy-two minutes after sundown. However, according to the Vilna Gaon, nightfall can be within one half hour of sunset. If so, one who follows the opinion of the Vilna Gaon would be prohibited from starting to eat one half hour before nightfall (of the Vilna Gaon) which is prior to sunset. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach quoted in Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata chapter 56 note 17 says that since even those who follow the opinion of the Vilna Gaon with regards to when to end shabbat will never actually recite Havdalah within one-half hour of sunset, they may start eating up until sundown.  
*Pninei Halacha [[Shabbat]] vol. 1 page 130 quotes Rav Moshe Feinstein Iggerot Moshe 4:69:6 that onehas until thirteen minutes and a half minutes after sunset. Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 414 agrees.
+
*Pninei Halacha [[Shabbat]] vol. 1 page 130 quotes Rav Moshe Feinstein Iggerot Moshe 4:69:6 that one has until thirteen minutes and a half minutes after sunset. Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 414 agrees.
 
#If one began eating before sunset he may continue after. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 299:1, Aruch Hashulchan 299:3. Mishna Berura 291:2 says that having said the beracha is enough of a start to your meal to allow one to continue afterwards. He also quotes an opinion that this only applies during bein hashemashot but after tzet hakochavim one would not be allowed to continue. Rama says that the minhag is not so, rather one can continue even after tzet hakochavim, and the aruch hashulchan 299:4 says that is the minhag. </ref> However, this doesn't apply if one was only drinking not as part of a meal <ref> Shulchan Aruch 299:1 </ref> or to eating only mezonot or fruit, so one must stop if that is all that he is having. <ref> Aruch Hashulchan 299:5 </ref>
 
#If one began eating before sunset he may continue after. <ref> Shulchan Aruch 299:1, Aruch Hashulchan 299:3. Mishna Berura 291:2 says that having said the beracha is enough of a start to your meal to allow one to continue afterwards. He also quotes an opinion that this only applies during bein hashemashot but after tzet hakochavim one would not be allowed to continue. Rama says that the minhag is not so, rather one can continue even after tzet hakochavim, and the aruch hashulchan 299:4 says that is the minhag. </ref> However, this doesn't apply if one was only drinking not as part of a meal <ref> Shulchan Aruch 299:1 </ref> or to eating only mezonot or fruit, so one must stop if that is all that he is having. <ref> Aruch Hashulchan 299:5 </ref>
  

Revision as of 13:55, 4 May 2012

Obligation

  1. There is an obligation to eat three meals on Shabbat, [1] and if one missed the meal on friday night, he should eat three during the day. [2]
  2. The obligation of eating the third meal of Shabbat (Seudat Shelishit) is rabbinic. [3]
  3. Women are obligated in Seudat Shelishit. [4]

Amount to eat

  1. If one is full one should eat at least a KeBaytzah of bread.[5] However, if one is unable one should at least have a Kezayit. [6]
  2. This obligation applies even if one is not hungry, [7] but if one can not eat at all then one is not obligated to pain oneself, as this would violate oneg shabbos. Nonetheless, a wise person will see ahead and leave room for Suedat Shelishit. [8]

What to Eat?

  1. One must eat bread for Seudat Shelishit, however, if one is very full and is unable, then one should eat Mezonot. If that is also impossible one should have food which usually accompany bread such as meat or fish or at least fruit (cooked fruit is preferable). If one doesn't have fruit then one may use a Reviyit of wine. [9]
  2. According to Sephardim one should be careful to have two whole loaves of bread for Lechem Mishneh at Seudat Shelishit. However, according to Ashkenazim, it's preferable to have two whole loaves but it's sufficient to have just one whole loaf. [10]
  3. If one only has one whole loaf of bread and a broken piece one should use the whole one for Seuda Shelishit instead of saving it for Melava Malka. [11]
  4. One doesn't need to cover the loaves of bread before making HaMotzei, however, it's preferable to cover them. [12]
  5. One should try to have fish even for seuda shlishit, except if one doesn't like fish he should not force himself. [13]

Timing

  1. The earliest time to fulfill Seudat Shelishit is from 6 and a 1/2 hours (Shaot Zmaniot) into the day. [14] If one began before the time and continued and ate at least a kezayit after the time he does fulfill his obligation for seuda shlishit. [15]
  2. The Minhag is to eat Seudat Shelishit between Mincha and Maariv/Arvit. [16] If one is unable to have it after mincha one should have it before mincha. [17]
  3. Although it is forbidden to begin eating after sunset until one says havdala, [18] and it is definitely preferable to eat before sunset, [19] some poskim give extra time to begin the meal if one hasn't yet eaten seuda shlishit. [20]
  • Mishna Berura 299:1 says that if one hasn't yet eaten the meal or is really starving then one can still eat until a half hour before tzet hakovachim. R. Avraham Chaim Naeh in Ketzot HaShulchan (chapter 94 note 6), notes that Mishna Berurah's ruling that one may eat until a half hour prior to nightfall is following the opinion of Rabbeinu Tam that nightfall is seventy-two minutes after sundown. However, according to the Vilna Gaon, nightfall can be within one half hour of sunset. If so, one who follows the opinion of the Vilna Gaon would be prohibited from starting to eat one half hour before nightfall (of the Vilna Gaon) which is prior to sunset. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach quoted in Shemirat Shabbat Kehilchata chapter 56 note 17 says that since even those who follow the opinion of the Vilna Gaon with regards to when to end shabbat will never actually recite Havdalah within one-half hour of sunset, they may start eating up until sundown.
  • Pninei Halacha Shabbat vol. 1 page 130 quotes Rav Moshe Feinstein Iggerot Moshe 4:69:6 that one has until thirteen minutes and a half minutes after sunset. Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 414 agrees.
  1. If one began eating before sunset he may continue after. [21] However, this doesn't apply if one was only drinking not as part of a meal [22] or to eating only mezonot or fruit, so one must stop if that is all that he is having. [23]

Birkat Hamazon

  1. One is obligated to say ritze vihachalitzenu after eating seudat shlishit during birkat hamazon as well as adding yaale viyavo on rosh chodesh or chol hamoed. [24] This applies even if the meal continued past tzet hakochavim. [25]
  2. If he forgot to say it and remembered
  • after finishing boneh yerushalayim but before the next beracha he should insert there a beracha instead of ritze "Baruch Ata Hashem Elokenu Melech Ha'olam Asher Natan Shabbatot Le'menucha Le'amo Yisrael Be'ahava Le'ot U'berit Baruch Ata Hashem Mekadesh Ha'Shabbat."
  • after beginning the fourth beracha he should just continue and not repeat. [26]

for a women even if she remembered before starting the fourth beracha she may only say the beracha without Hashem's name or just continue onward. [27]

  1. When rosh chodesh or the first day of chanuka falls out on sunday even if the seuda continued until after dark one doesn't say yaale viyavo. [28]

Kiddush

  1. There is no obligation to do Kiddush at Suedat Shelishit, but it is nice to make a beracha on wine during the meal. [29]

References

  1. Shulchan Aruch 291:1, Mishna Berura 291:1, Rambam Shabbat 30:9, Yalkut Yosef Shabbat Volume 1 page 399. This is based on the gemara in shabbat 117b which derives from the verse in Shemot 16:25 which mentions the word "hayom" meaning today three times. The gemara 118b goes through the great rewards for one who eats all three meals on shabbat.
  2. Rama 291:1
  3. Mishna Brurah 291:1, Shu"t Maharil 94, Pri Megadim Mishbetzot Zahav 291:1. See Sh"t Tzitz Eliezer 16:13. Pri Megadim Mishbetzot Zahav 291:1 quotes the Levush who says that this obligation is from the torah, even though he himself disagrees. The Sefer Chareidim 14:3 and Maharal quoted by the Taz 472:1 agree with this opinion.
  4. S"A 291:6, Kitzur S"A 77:16, Yalkut Yosef (Shabbat vol 1, pg 410). This is based on Rabbeinu Tam in Sefer Hayashar 70:4 which says that women are obligated because they too were part of the miracle of the manna. The Ran on Shabbat 44a "vikatav" says that it is based on the same source as a woman's obligation in kiddush mentioned in Berachot 20a, that since they are obligated in refraining from melacha, they are also obligated in the mitzvot aseh even if it is only rabbinic. The Aruch Hashulchan 291:4 says that many women are unaware of their obligation and we should work to fix that.
  5. S"A 291:1
  6. Mishna Brurah 291:2, Kaf HaChaim 291:5, Yalkut Yosef (Shabbat vol 1 pg 399)
  7. Shulchan Aruch 291:1. Kaf Hachayim 291:3 quotes the Chida saying that one should really make that extra effort because one would normally would eat a meal friday night and shabbat morning anyway so the afternoon meal is the only one that is clearly for the honor of shabbat, and proves that the first two were as well.
  8. S"A 291:1
  9. The above is from Yalkut Yosef (Shabbat vol 1 pg 409).
    • Tosafot Yoma 79b "minai" says that one must eat bread based on the connection between seuda shlishit and the manna. Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 30:9, Tur 291, SA 291:4-5 all accept this opinion. Rabbeinu Tam quoted in Tosafot Brachot 49b "ee ba'ay achil" allows eating minei targima to fulfill the obligation of seudat shlishit based on Rabbi Eliezer's statement on Succa 27a who says that you can fulfill the obligation for a meal on succot with minei targima. Rabbeinu Yona on the Rif Brachot 36b "Birkat" agrees. The Rosh Brachot 2:13 says that minei targima are foods made from one of the five species of grain based on a Tosefta that says that the beracha on minei targima is borei minei mezonot. Tosafot to Succa 27a "minei targima" say that foods which usually accompany bread such as meat or fish are included in this as well. Rashi "minei targima" there, as well as Rabbeinu Yona Brachot 36b "birkat," and the Ran Shabbat 44a "v'ika" include even fruit in this category.
    • Shulchan Aruch 291:5 quotes all these opinions and concludes that one should eat bread.
    • Kitzur S"A 77:16 writes that One must eat bread for Seudat Shelishit, however, if one is very full and is unable, then one should eat Mezonot. If that is also impossible one should have food which usually accompany bread such as meat or fish. If that too is impossible one should have at least fruit cooked fruit.
    • Aruch Hashulchan 291:12 says that it is not proper to rely on any of these opinions unless one is sick.
    • Magen Avraham 444:2 when discussing what to do on erev pesach that falls out on shabbat gives several options and also quotes the Shla saying that one may fulfill seudat shlishit with divrei torah. The Rokeach 55 allows one to skip seudat shlishit to go here a shiur in the afternoon. Pri Megadim (E"A 290) disagrees and says one shouldn't miss seudat shlishit even to hear a shiur. Aruch Hashulchan 290:3 and Kaf Hachayim 290:14 agree with the Pri Megadim.
  10. S"A and Rama 291:4. S"A is based on Rambam Shabbat 30:9 and Rama based on Tosafot Yoma 79b "minei". Kitzur S"A 77:17 simply writes that one should have Lechem Mishneh for all three meals of Shabbat.
  11. Biur Halacha 291 D"H VeLePachot
  12. Yalkut Yosef (Kitzur S"A 291:9)
  13. Yalkut Yosef Shabbat volume 1 page 408. Mishna Brurah 242:2 says this enhances kavod shabbat.
  14. S"A 291:2, Kitzur S"A 77:16, Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402. The Behag quoted by the Ran Shabbat 43b "tanu rabanan" says that it could be eaten at any time of the day, but Tosfot Shabbat 118a "bimincha" and Rosh Shabbat 16:5 say that it is specifically at the start of mincha gedola. Shulchan Aruch rules like Tosfot and the Rosh. Aruch Hashulchan 291:3 says that you don't fulfill your obligation if you eat earlier than that.
  15. Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402. Aruch Hashulchan 291:6 says also that if one began before mid-day and had in mind to continue until after mid-day and fulfill his obligation then he does fulfill it.
  16. Rama 291:2. Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 402-403 Rabbeinu Tam quoted by the Tosfot Pesachim 105a "vihani milei", as well as the Rosh Shabbat 10:13 say that one should eat before saying mincha because it is forbidden to drink water between mincha and arvit on shabbat because drinking between mincha and arvit could cause harm to the souls that leave after shabbat. Rambam Hilchot Shabbat 30:10 writes that it is best to eat it after saying mincha and the hagahot maimoniot hilchot shabbat 30:20 agrees and quotes a different version of rabbeinu tam. The Rama quotes both opinions and says that the minhag is to do like the Rambam. The Magen Avraham 291:5 says this is because of the prohibition to eat before davening mincha. Aruch Hashulchan 291:4 also says the minhag is that way also.
  17. Aruch HaShulchan 291:4. Mishna Berura 291:11 says to make sure to eat before the time of mincha ketana arrives. Yalkut Yosef Shabbat volume 1 page 402 says also that you fulfill your obligation but should try to get somebody to remind you to say mincha if you are going to eat before saying it.
  18. Shulchan Aruch 291:1, Rif Pesachim 21b.
  19. Mishna Berura 299:1, Magen Avraham 299:1. See Shmirat Shabbat Kihilchita chapter 56 note 15 where he says that the idea that one should eat at least a kezayit of bread after tzet hakochavim on friday night quoted in Mishna Berurah 267:5, because there is an opinion that says you cannot fulfill a seudat shabbat during tosefet shabbat, should carry over to seudat shlishit, and therefore to satisfy this opinion one should be stringent and eat prior to sunset.
  20. Shaar Hatziyun 299:2 gives two reasons for this. First, he says one can rely on the opinion of the Taz 299:1 who thinks that the Rosh Pesachim 12:10 allows eating until nightfall since there is a potential fulfillment of a mitzva. Second, the potential fulfillment of the mitzvah of seudah shlishit should override the potential prohibition of eating during bein hashimashot.
  21. Shulchan Aruch 299:1, Aruch Hashulchan 299:3. Mishna Berura 291:2 says that having said the beracha is enough of a start to your meal to allow one to continue afterwards. He also quotes an opinion that this only applies during bein hashemashot but after tzet hakochavim one would not be allowed to continue. Rama says that the minhag is not so, rather one can continue even after tzet hakochavim, and the aruch hashulchan 299:4 says that is the minhag.
  22. Shulchan Aruch 299:1
  23. Aruch Hashulchan 299:5
  24. Yalkut Yosef Shabbat volume 1 page 410.
  25. Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 414
  26. This is because there are opinions that one is not obligated to eat bread at seudat shlishit and Mishna Berura 188:26 says that if the meal is not obligatory you don't return for missing ritzei. Mishna Berura 291:6 based on Shaare Teshuva 291:1, Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 411. For the rules for the first two meals see http://www.dailyhalacha.com/m/halacha.aspx?id=1198.
  27. Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 412.
  28. Yalkut Yosef shabbat 1 page 412.
  29. Yalkut Yosef shabbat volume 1 page 405. Shulchan Aruch 291:4 says you do not need to say kiddush for seudat shlishit, and Mishna Berura 291:21 adds that it is nice to make the beracha on wine because it enhances the meal. Rambam Shabbat 30:9 says that we establish the third meal with lechem mishne and wine. The Tur 291 says that this sounds like we should say kiddush on seudat shlishit as well, but says that the Rosh disagrees because just like there is only one kiddush at night, so too in the day. The Beit Yosef 291 says since most rishonim hold that we don't say kiddush, it is unnecessary, but you don't lose anything if you do. Rav Avigdor Neventzal in the Biyitzchak Yikare edition of the Mishna Berura 291:4 footnote “ein tzarich” says that Rav Shlomo Zalman did drink wine during the meal, and adds that if one person says the beracha out loud, everybody fulfills the rambam that one should establish his meal on wine.