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Kiddush: Difference between revisions

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==Washing before or after Kiddish==
==Washing before or after Kiddish==


#One should make [[Kiddish]] before washing for bread. However, Bedieved, if one did wash with a bracha before making [[Kiddish]], according to Sephardim, one should make [[Kiddish]] on bread and not on wine.<ref>*Tur 271:12 quotes Rav Amram Goan (Siddur vol 2, [[Siman 17]]) who wrote that one should make [[Kiddish]] on wine and then wash for bread, however, if one washed first one should make [[Kiddish]] on bread in accordance with Rav Bruna in Pesachim 106b. Rambam (Hilchot [[Shabbat]] 29:9-10) and the Ran in explaining the Rif (22a) concur. The Maharam MeRotenburg's (quoted by the Tur 271:12) practice was to make Kiddush before washing. Shulchan Aruch 271:12 rules that one should make Kiddush and then wash, however, if one washed first one should make Kiddush on the bread.
#One should make [[Kiddish]] before washing for bread. However, after the fact, if one washed with a bracha before making [[Kiddish]], according to Sephardim, one should make [[Kiddish]] on bread and not on wine.<ref>*Tur 271:12 quotes Rav Amram Goan (Siddur vol 2, [[Siman 17]]) who wrote that one should make [[Kiddish]] on wine and then wash for bread, however, if one washed first one should make [[Kiddish]] on bread in accordance with Rav Bruna in Pesachim 106b. Rambam (Hilchot [[Shabbat]] 29:9-10) and the Ran in explaining the Rif (22a) concur. The Maharam MeRotenburg's (quoted by the Tur 271:12) practice was to make Kiddush before washing. Shulchan Aruch 271:12 rules that one should make Kiddush and then wash, however, if one washed first one should make Kiddush on the bread.
*Kaf HaChaim 271:76 adds that the Arizal (Shaar Kavanot 71c) agrees because the order should be kept as [[Kiddish]] being the completion of [[prayer]] and washing as the start of the meal. Gra 271:12, Maamer Mordechai 271:16, and Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]] vol 1 pg 273) concur with Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, Sephardim shouldn't change from the ruling of Shulchan Aruch even Bedieved. However, the Kaf HaChaim 271:77 argues that Bedieved one should say [[Kiddish]] on wine because one has what to rely on.</ref> According to Ashkenazim, Bedieved one can make still make the [[Kiddish]] on wine and then have the bread.<ref>However, the Rashbam (Pesachim 106b), and Baal HaMoar (Pesachim 21b s.v. Amar Rav Bruna) explain the gemara differently than the Ran and say that lechatchila one should make [[Kiddish]] first, however if one doesn't one can still make [[Kiddish]] on wine. Rabbenu Tam (Pesachim 106b s.v. Mekadesh) and the Ri (Pesachim  106b s.v. Zimnin) hold that even Lechatchila one should wash before making [[Kiddish]] on wine. Hagahot Maimon 29:100, Sh"t Rashba 1:752, Rokeach (115), and Mordechai (Pesachim 106b; pg 37c) side with Rabbenu Tam and Ri. Such was the minhag of the Rosh (quoted by Tur 271:12) and the minhag of Ashkenaz as writes the Rama 271:12. The Taz 271:14 and Chaye Adam ([[Shabbat]] 6:12) rule that the Rama is only bedieved. Therefore, Mishna Brurah 271:62 writes that since many achronim side with Shulchan Aruch and one satisfies all opinions one should make [[Kiddish]] first, however Bedieved one can rely on the Rama to make [[Kiddish]] on wine if one did in fact wash first. Kaf HaChaim 271:77 adds in the name of the Bach that if one didn't make the bracha on [[Netilat yadayim]] one should make [[Kiddish]] on wine and then rewash so that one doesn't loose the [[Kiddish]] over wine. </ref>
*Kaf HaChaim 271:76 adds that the Arizal (Shaar Kavanot 71c) agrees because the order should be kept as [[Kiddish]] being the completion of [[prayer]] and washing as the start of the meal. Gra 271:12, Maamer Mordechai 271:16, and Yalkut Yosef ([[Shabbat]] vol 1 pg 273) concur with Shulchan Aruch. Therefore, Sephardim shouldn't change from the ruling of Shulchan Aruch even Bedieved. However, the Kaf HaChaim 271:77 argues that Bedieved one should say [[Kiddish]] on wine because one has what to rely on.</ref> According to Ashkenazim, Bedieved one can make still make the [[Kiddish]] on wine and then have the bread.<ref>However, the Rashbam (Pesachim 106b), and Baal HaMoar (Pesachim 21b s.v. Amar Rav Bruna) explain the gemara differently than the Ran and say that lechatchila one should make [[Kiddish]] first, however if one doesn't one can still make [[Kiddish]] on wine. Rabbenu Tam (Pesachim 106b s.v. Mekadesh) and the Ri (Pesachim  106b s.v. Zimnin) hold that even Lechatchila one should wash before making [[Kiddish]] on wine. Hagahot Maimon 29:100, Sh"t Rashba 1:752, Rokeach (115), and Mordechai (Pesachim 106b; pg 37c) side with Rabbenu Tam and Ri. Such was the minhag of the Rosh (quoted by Tur 271:12) and the minhag of Ashkenaz as writes the Rama 271:12. The Taz 271:14 and Chaye Adam ([[Shabbat]] 6:12) rule that the Rama is only bedieved. Therefore, Mishna Brurah 271:62 writes that since many achronim side with Shulchan Aruch and one satisfies all opinions one should make [[Kiddish]] first, however Bedieved one can rely on the Rama to make [[Kiddish]] on wine if one did in fact wash first. Kaf HaChaim 271:77 adds in the name of the Bach that if one didn't make the bracha on [[Netilat yadayim]] one should make [[Kiddish]] on wine and then rewash so that one doesn't loose the [[Kiddish]] over wine. </ref>
#Nonetheless, some Ashkenazim have the Minhag (specifically German Jews) to specifically wash before making [[Kiddish]] over wine and they have what to rely on.<ref>See previous note. Rama 271:12 writes that such was the minhag of Ashkenaz to wash before [[Kiddish]]. The Bet Yosef 271:12 comments that he saw some Sephardim who had such a practice but sternly disagreed based on the Rif and Rambam. </ref>
#Some Ashkenazim have the Minhag (specifically German Jews) to specifically wash before making [[Kiddish]] over wine and they have what to rely on.<ref>See previous note. Rama O.C. 271:12 writes that such was the absolutely overwhelming Ashkenazi minhag to wash before [[Kiddish]]. Darkei Moshe 271:11 in fact says that he never saw anyone who made kiddush before they washed. The Bet Yosef 271:12 comments that he saw some Sephardim who had such a practice but sternly disagreed based on the Rif and Rambam.</ref>
#There is no difference concerning the order between the one making the [[Kiddish]] and other members of the family.<ref>Magen Avraham 271:26 in name of Hagahot Mordechai (it seems that he means Mordechai pg 37b), Bach 271:11 (s.v. VeleInyan) distinguish between the one making [[Kiddish]] and the other members of the family for whom [[Kiddish]] won't be an interruption. Kaf HaChaim 271:79 argues that there's no difference between the one making [[Kiddish]] and the other family members. </ref>
#There is no difference concerning the order between the one making the [[Kiddish]] and other members of the family.<ref>Magen Avraham 271:26 in name of Hagahot Mordechai (it seems that he means Mordechai pg 37b), Bach 271:11 (s.v. VeleInyan) distinguish between the one making [[Kiddish]] and the other members of the family for whom [[Kiddish]] won't be an interruption. Kaf HaChaim 271:79 argues that there's no difference between the one making [[Kiddish]] and the other family members. </ref>
#If one's minhag is to wash first, it's forbidden to dilute the wine between the washing and [[Kiddish]] as that would be an interruption between washing and the meal. Some say one also shouldn't pour the wine from the bottle between washing and the meal as it constitutes an interruption.<ref>Magen Avraham 271:27 writes that even according to Rabbenu Tam (Pesachim 106 s.v. Mekadesh) that Lechatchila one can wash before [[Kiddish]], explains that Bet Hillel ([[Brachot]]) says to make [[Kiddish]] first in the case where one has to dilute the wine becasue diluting wine takes precision and is definitely an interruption. Magen Avraham adds that according to the stringent opinion in Shulchan Aruch 166:1 (which is the Tur based on the Yerushalmi) one should be strict not to make any interruption. The Magen Avraham is brought as halacha by the Tosfet [[Shabbat]] 271:34 and Kaf HaChaim 271:78. </ref>
#If one's minhag is to wash first, it's forbidden to dilute the wine between the washing and [[Kiddish]] as that would be an interruption between washing and the meal. Some say one also shouldn't pour the wine from the bottle between washing and the meal as it constitutes an interruption.<ref>Magen Avraham 271:27 writes that even according to Rabbenu Tam (Pesachim 106 s.v. Mekadesh) that Lechatchila one can wash before [[Kiddish]], explains that Bet Hillel ([[Brachot]]) says to make [[Kiddish]] first in the case where one has to dilute the wine becasue diluting wine takes precision and is definitely an interruption. Magen Avraham adds that according to the stringent opinion in Shulchan Aruch 166:1 (which is the Tur based on the Yerushalmi) one should be strict not to make any interruption. The Magen Avraham is brought as halacha by the Tosfet [[Shabbat]] 271:34 and Kaf HaChaim 271:78. </ref>
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