Zimmun - Revision history

Mpg613: /* Who can join a Zimmun */ fixed broken links

2025-08-17T14:31:39Z

Who can join a Zimmun: fixed broken links

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:31, 17 August 2025
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	List of sources from rishonim:		List of sources from rishonim:
	*Ritva ([https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid%~~3D14584~~%~~23p~~%~~3D1~~%~~26fitMode~~%~~3Dfitwidth~~%~~26hlts~~%3D%~~26ocr~~%3D%~~25D7~~%~~259E~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A6~~%~~25D7~~%~~2598~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A8~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A4~~%~~25D7~~%~~2595~~%~~25D7~~%~~25AA~~%~~2520~~%~~25D7~~%~~2595~~%~~25D7~~%~~259E~~%~~25D7%2596%25D7%259E%25~~ Chiddushim on Megillah 4a]; [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid%~~3D16269%23p~~%~~3D71~~%~~26fitMode~~%~~3Dfitwidth~~%~~26hlts~~%3D%~~26ocr~~%3D%~~25D7~~%~~259B~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A9~~%~~25D7~~%~~2599~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A9~~%~~2520~~%~~25D7~~%~~2596~~%~~25D7~~%~~2599~~%~~25D7~~%~~259E~~%~~25D7~~%~~2595~~%~~25D7~~%~~259F~~%~~2520~~%~~25D7~~%~~2591~~%~~25D7~~%2 Hilchot Brachot 7:2])		*Ritva ([https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14584#p=53&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%95%D7%9E%D7%96%D7%9E%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%AA Chiddushim on Megillah 4a]; [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot 7:2])

	*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid%~~3D46470%23p%3D198%26fitMode~~%~~3Dfitwidth~~%~~26hlts~~%3D%~~26ocr~~%3D%~~25D7~~%~~259E~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A6~~%~~25D7~~%~~2598~~%~~25D7~~%~~25A8%25D7%25A4%25D7%2595%25D7%25AA&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1740719330512869&usg=~~ Raah (Brachot 45a)]		*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=46470#p=198&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9E%D7%A6%D7%98%D7%A8%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%AA Raah (Brachot 45a)]

	*[https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Berakhot.47b.5?lang%3Dbi%26with%3Dall%26lang2%3Den&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1740719330513197&usg=AOvVaw3lkzsFDHz2P3x5b9RV4gVq Meiri (Brachot 47b s.v. hamishnah hashlishit) in the name of some authorities (“ויש שמוסיף בה”)]		*[https://www.sefaria.org/Meiri_on_Berakhot.47b.5?lang%3Dbi%26with%3Dall%26lang2%3Den&sa=D&source=editors&ust=1740719330513197&usg=AOvVaw3lkzsFDHz2P3x5b9RV4gVq Meiri (Brachot 47b s.v. hamishnah hashlishit) in the name of some authorities (“ויש שמוסיף בה”)]

Mpg613: corrected typo

2025-05-25T21:52:11Z

corrected typo

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:52, 25 May 2025
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	*It’s possible that this is the intention of the [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_II.369.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Ohr Zarua Volume II #369] (even though in [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_I.184.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he Ohr Zarua Volume I #184] he seems to side with the opinions that women are ''always'' exempt from zimmun, it seems that his arguments here that women can’t be motzi men in zimmun are independent of his conclusion there.)		*It’s possible that this is the intention of the [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_II.369.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Ohr Zarua Volume II #369] (even though in [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_I.184.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he Ohr Zarua Volume I #184] he seems to side with the opinions that women are ''always'' exempt from zimmun, it seems that his arguments here that women can’t be motzi men in zimmun are independent of his conclusion there.)
	*Implication of the Rashbetz on Brachot 45a s.v. נשים ועבדים וקטנים אין מזמנין עליהן (quoted in [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/634498/p/75/t/1/fs/0/start/0/end/0/c Tzror Hachaim on Rambam Hilchot Brachot 5:1, printed in Osaf ~~Medarshei~~ Harambam edition pf Tzror Hachaim on page 75 s.v. שוב ראיתי] and in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=55918#p=774&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%99%20%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F Meir Oz vol. 8 page 764]), who contrasts the pritzut of combining men and women to make a zimmun to a woman being '''''motzi''''' men in other mitzvot. Seemingly, he would not allow a woman to be '''''motzi''''' men in zimmun.		*Implication of the Rashbetz on Brachot 45a s.v. נשים ועבדים וקטנים אין מזמנין עליהן (quoted in [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/634498/p/75/t/1/fs/0/start/0/end/0/c Tzror Hachaim on Rambam Hilchot Brachot 5:1, printed in Osaf Mefarshei Harambam edition pf Tzror Hachaim on page 75 s.v. שוב ראיתי] and in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=55918#p=774&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%99%20%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F Meir Oz vol. 8 page 764]), who contrasts the pritzut of combining men and women to make a zimmun to a woman being '''''motzi''''' men in other mitzvot. Seemingly, he would not allow a woman to be '''''motzi''''' men in zimmun.

	*Implication of [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Hilchot Brachot 9:15 footnote 71-73)] as understood by [https://www.sefaria.org/Biur_Halacha.199.7.3?vhe=Biur_Halacha&lang=bi Beiur Halacha (199:7 s.v. veyotz’ot)]. <small>(In footnote 71 he says the reason women are obligated in zimmun only when eating with 3 men is in order to show that women can't be motzi men in birkat hamazon deoraita; in footnote 72 he says a group of 3 women can't break off from a group of 3 men to make their own zimmun, rather they must be yotzei with the men's zimmun; in footnote 73 he says that women are not allowed to respond to the men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun.)</small>		*Implication of [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Hilchot Brachot 9:15 footnote 71-73)] as understood by [https://www.sefaria.org/Biur_Halacha.199.7.3?vhe=Biur_Halacha&lang=bi Beiur Halacha (199:7 s.v. veyotz’ot)]. <small>(In footnote 71 he says the reason women are obligated in zimmun only when eating with 3 men is in order to show that women can't be motzi men in birkat hamazon deoraita; in footnote 72 he says a group of 3 women can't break off from a group of 3 men to make their own zimmun, rather they must be yotzei with the men's zimmun; in footnote 73 he says that women are not allowed to respond to the men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun.)</small>

Mpg613: Added sources and corrected typo

2025-05-23T15:33:54Z

Added sources and corrected typo

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:33, 23 May 2025
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	# Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref>		# Women who ate together can optionally make a zimmun for themselves. The zimmun for women doesn't change whether it is three or ten or more women; either way they do not mention Hashem's name, ''Elokenu'', in the zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch O.C. 199:7</ref>
	# Some say that if a man ate with three women, the man may lead the zimmun.<ref>[https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_III.1?lang=he Benei Banim 3:1].</ref> However, some say that this is not allowed.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach quoted in [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Volume_IV.4.9/?vhe=hebrew%7CResponsa+Benei+Banim%2C+Jerusalem+1981-2005 Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram] from Halichos Beisa. See exact quote from Halichos Beisa in Aliba Dehilcheta [https://gilyonot.jewishoffice.co.il/1pQoe7FbSchNTCCsfQX-vNYZhrJE2kHbo gilyon 33] [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=64133&st=&pgnum=93 pg 17] (see [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/151387/p/17/t/0.31053137306437261234/fs/m_hCWkf9Vli8X73f6YDWlpIcP4MMa4ZVKfhP2gX91arZ/start/6/end/9/c here] for color version of pg 17). Although Benei Banim doesn’t agree with R’ S.Z. Auerbach based on evidence from rishonim, he says it’s better not to be lenient unless necessary.</ref> <small>(See footnote for many additional sources relating to this topic.<ref>List of sources that allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women:		# Some say that if a man ate with three women, the man may lead the zimmun.<ref>[https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_III.1?lang=he Benei Banim 3:1].</ref> However, some say that this is not allowed.<ref>Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach quoted in [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Volume_IV.4.9/?vhe=hebrew%7CResponsa+Benei+Banim%2C+Jerusalem+1981-2005 Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram] from Halichos Beisa. See exact quote from Halichos Beisa in Aliba Dehilcheta [https://gilyonot.jewishoffice.co.il/1pQoe7FbSchNTCCsfQX-vNYZhrJE2kHbo gilyon 33] [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=64133&st=&pgnum=93 pg 17] (see [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/151387/p/17/t/0.31053137306437261234/fs/m_hCWkf9Vli8X73f6YDWlpIcP4MMa4ZVKfhP2gX91arZ/start/6/end/9/c here] for color version of pg 17). Although Benei Banim doesn’t agree with R’ S.Z. Auerbach based on evidence from rishonim, he says it’s better not to be lenient unless necessary.</ref> <small>(See footnote for many additional sources relating to this topic.<ref>List of sources that allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women:
	*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16100#p=117&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9C%20%D7%9C%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sefer Hameorot (Brachot 45a, R' Blau ed., pg. 135]		*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16100#p=117&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%99%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%9C%20%D7%9C%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sefer Hameorot (Brachot 45a, R' Blau ed., pg. 135)]

	*Raavad (brought by [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed, Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)]		*Raavad (brought by [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed, Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)]
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	# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>		# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.		# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.
	# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Hershel Schachter (Shiur on Berachos #87 44b-45b, at 69:51)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun. (However, at 70:53 he qualified his statement by saying that there can be a partial fulfillment of zimun even when not hearing the ''entire'' birkat hamazon out loud-- see earlier regarding the crucial part of zimun.)</ref>		# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly.
			See further regarding this minhag in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14515#p=14&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr= Tzitz Eliezer 16:1:6] and [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=21903&pgnum=42 Yeshuas Moshe 3:19].
			Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Hershel Schachter (Shiur on Berachos #87 44b-45b, at 69:51)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun. (However, at 70:53 he qualified his statement by saying that there can be a partial fulfillment of zimun even when not hearing the ''entire'' birkat hamazon out loud-- see earlier regarding the crucial part of zimun.)</ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>		# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>
	# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>		# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>

Mpg613: /* Women */ added source

2025-05-20T01:59:05Z

Women: added source

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:59, 20 May 2025
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	*It’s possible that this is the intention of the [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_II.369.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Ohr Zarua Volume II #369] (even though in [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_I.184.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he Ohr Zarua Volume I #184] he seems to side with the opinions that women are ''always'' exempt from zimmun, it seems that his arguments here that women can’t be motzi men in zimmun are independent of his conclusion there.)		*It’s possible that this is the intention of the [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_II.369.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he&with=all&lang2=he Ohr Zarua Volume II #369] (even though in [https://www.sefaria.org/Ohr_Zarua%2C_Volume_I.184.1?ven=hebrew\|Ohr_Zarua,_Zhytomyr,_1862&lang=he Ohr Zarua Volume I #184] he seems to side with the opinions that women are ''always'' exempt from zimmun, it seems that his arguments here that women can’t be motzi men in zimmun are independent of his conclusion there.)
			*Implication of the Rashbetz on Brachot 45a s.v. נשים ועבדים וקטנים אין מזמנין עליהן (quoted in [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/634498/p/75/t/1/fs/0/start/0/end/0/c Tzror Hachaim on Rambam Hilchot Brachot 5:1, printed in Osaf Medarshei Harambam edition pf Tzror Hachaim on page 75 s.v. שוב ראיתי] and in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=55918#p=774&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%A9%D7%90%D7%A0%D7%99%20%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%AA%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F Meir Oz vol. 8 page 764]), who contrasts the pritzut of combining men and women to make a zimmun to a woman being '''''motzi''''' men in other mitzvot. Seemingly, he would not allow a woman to be '''''motzi''''' men in zimmun.

	*Implication of [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Hilchot Brachot 9:15 footnote 71-73)] as understood by [https://www.sefaria.org/Biur_Halacha.199.7.3?vhe=Biur_Halacha&lang=bi Beiur Halacha (199:7 s.v. veyotz’ot)]. <small>(In footnote 71 he says the reason women are obligated in zimmun only when eating with 3 men is in order to show that women can't be motzi men in birkat hamazon deoraita; in footnote 72 he says a group of 3 women can't break off from a group of 3 men to make their own zimmun, rather they must be yotzei with the men's zimmun; in footnote 73 he says that women are not allowed to respond to the men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun.)</small>		*Implication of [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Hilchot Brachot 9:15 footnote 71-73)] as understood by [https://www.sefaria.org/Biur_Halacha.199.7.3?vhe=Biur_Halacha&lang=bi Beiur Halacha (199:7 s.v. veyotz’ot)]. <small>(In footnote 71 he says the reason women are obligated in zimmun only when eating with 3 men is in order to show that women can't be motzi men in birkat hamazon deoraita; in footnote 72 he says a group of 3 women can't break off from a group of 3 men to make their own zimmun, rather they must be yotzei with the men's zimmun; in footnote 73 he says that women are not allowed to respond to the men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun.)</small>

Levinjoey: Changed people to men for zimmun of ten.

2025-04-14T11:53:55Z

Changed people to men for zimmun of ten.

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:53, 14 April 2025
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	==A Zimmun of Ten==		==A Zimmun of Ten==
	# If ten ~~people~~ ate bread together, they are supposed to add the word Elokenu in the Zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 192:1</ref>		# If ten men ate bread together, they are supposed to add the word Elokenu in the Zimmun.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 192:1</ref>
	# If seven ~~people~~ ate bread and three ~~people~~ ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six ~~people~~ who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara.		# If seven men ate bread and three men ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six men who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara.
	* Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref>		* Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref>
	# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.<ref>[https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=887&pgnum=12 Sh"t Be’er Moshe 1:2] compares standing for Elokenu of zimmun to standing for barchu and concludes that one should stand but if one doesn't there is what to rely upon. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 87 at the end)] said that Rav Soloveitchik's minhag was not to stand for Elokenu of zimmun of ten but those who do stand think that it is like a dvar shebekedusha ([https://www.sefaria.org/Kessef_Mishneh_on_Mishneh_Torah%2C_Blessings.5.7.3?lang=bi Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7]).		# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.<ref>[https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=887&pgnum=12 Sh"t Be’er Moshe 1:2] compares standing for Elokenu of zimmun to standing for barchu and concludes that one should stand but if one doesn't there is what to rely upon. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 87 at the end)] said that Rav Soloveitchik's minhag was not to stand for Elokenu of zimmun of ten but those who do stand think that it is like a dvar shebekedusha ([https://www.sefaria.org/Kessef_Mishneh_on_Mishneh_Torah%2C_Blessings.5.7.3?lang=bi Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7]).

Mpg613: clarified footnote

2025-04-04T00:35:59Z

clarified footnote

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	# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>		# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.		# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.
	# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Hershel Schachter Shiur on Berachos #87 44b-45b (at 69:51)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun. (However, at 70:53 he qualified his statement by saying that there is a partial fulfillment of zimun even when not hearing the ''entire'' birkat hamazon out loud.)</ref>		# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Hershel Schachter (Shiur on Berachos #87 44b-45b, at 69:51)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun. (However, at 70:53 he qualified his statement by saying that there can be a partial fulfillment of zimun even when not hearing the ''entire'' birkat hamazon out loud-- see earlier regarding the crucial part of zimun.)</ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>		# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>
	# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>		# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>

Mpg613: Added and corrected links and corrected citation.

2025-04-03T17:48:17Z

Added and corrected links and corrected citation.

Mpg613: Added link and page number

2025-04-03T16:21:24Z

Added link and page number

← Older revision		Revision as of 16:21, 3 April 2025
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	# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>		# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.		# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.
	# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <~~Ref~~>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/897474/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-87-44b-45b-lishmor-chukav-zman-tefillin-muktzeh-mayim-letzmao-zimmun-/ Rav Schachter in Brachot Shiur 87 (min 70)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun.</ref>		# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/897474/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-87-44b-45b-lishmor-chukav-zman-tefillin-muktzeh-mayim-letzmao-zimmun-/ Rav Schachter in Brachot Shiur 87 (min 70)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun.</ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>		# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>
	# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>		# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>

Mpg613: Corrected punctuation

2025-04-03T15:46:09Z

Corrected punctuation

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	**[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.)		**[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.)

	**Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51-][https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=81 52])— there’s room to say that he holds that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women, since he only requires women to be yotzei from a man when there’s already 3 men making a zimmun. Seemingly even though there’s an advantage of hearing birkat hamazon from a man, this is not allowed when there’s no zimmun of 3 men. (This matter requires further study.)		**Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51]-[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=81 52])— there’s room to say that he holds that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women, since he only requires women to be yotzei from a man when there’s already 3 men making a zimmun. Seemingly even though there’s an advantage of hearing birkat hamazon from a man, this is not allowed when there’s no zimmun of 3 men. (This matter requires further study.)

	**Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew\|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small>		**Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew\|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small>

Mpg613: Corrected error and added source

2025-04-03T15:42:26Z

Corrected error and added source

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:42, 3 April 2025
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	*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2] also says that a woman may lead a zimmun for 3 men. See also [https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.38a.9?lang=he&with=Ritva Ritva on Sukka 38a s.v. tanu rabanan] who seems to say the same.		*[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=16269#p=71&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%9B%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A9%20%D7%96%D7%99%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%9F%20%D7%91%D7%96%D7%9B%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D Hilchot Brachot of the Ritva 7:2] also says that a woman may lead a zimmun for 3 men. See also [https://www.sefaria.org/Sukkah.38a.9?lang=he&with=Ritva Ritva on Sukka 38a s.v. tanu rabanan] who seems to say the same.

	*There’s room to explain the Zohar as saying that 1 man can lead a zimmun of 3 women. See [https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Midrash_Rut.594?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&lang=bi Zohar Chadash on Rut (§594 on Sefaria)] and the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14248#p=336&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9C%20%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%9C%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A2%20%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%99%20%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sulam edition (pg. 133; daf 87d in the old edition)].		*There’s room to explain the Zohar as saying that 1 man can lead a zimmun of 3 women. See [https://www.sefaria.org/Zohar_Chadash%2C_Midrash_Rut.594?vhe=Zohar_Chadash&lang=bi Zohar Chadash on Rut (§594 on Sefaria)] and the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/reader/reader.aspx?sfid=14248#p=336&fitMode=fitwidth&hlts=&ocr=%D7%90%D7%91%D7%9C%20%D7%97%D7%99%D7%99%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA%20%D7%9C%D7%A9%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A2%20%D7%94%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%94%20%D7%9E%D7%A4%D7%99%20%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%9A Sulam edition (pg. 133; daf 87d in the old edition)]. (However, the Matok Midevash pg. 579 explains the Zohar according to the opinion that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun of 3 women.)
	Sources that '''do not''' allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women:		Sources that '''do not''' allow 1 man to lead a zimmun of 3 women:
	**[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.)		**[https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14448&st=&pgnum=250&hilite= Ohel Moed (Shaar Brachot Derech 7 Netiv 1 daf 107b)] brings the Raavad’s opinion and another rishon’s opinion that disagrees with him; the Ohel Moed himself doesn’t take sides on this issue. (However it’s not entirely clear that this anonymous rishon– who’s also cited in the Sefer Hameorot mentioned above– actually holds that a man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women. Rather, it’s possible that he simply holds that men and women can’t join together for a zimmun because of pritzut. This is in opposition to the Sefer Hameorot’s position that we are not concerned at all for the reason of pritzut in a zimmun of men and women, as long as there’s no avadim. But this exact case of 3 women and 1 man may not have been the intention of that anonymous rishon.)

	**Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51-51]— there’s room to say that he holds that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women, since he only requires women to be yotzei from a man when there’s already 3 men making a zimmun. Seemingly even though there’s an advantage of hearing birkat hamazon from a man, this is not allowed when there’s no zimmun of 3 men. (This matter requires further study.)		**Peirushim Upsakim Al Hatorah Lerabbeinu Avigdor Tzarfati, Parshat Eikev, (can be found in [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=80&hilite= Kovetz Shitot Kamai on Arachin 3a pg. 51-][https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53035&st=&pgnum=81 52])— there’s room to say that he holds that 1 man can’t lead a zimmun for 3 women, since he only requires women to be yotzei from a man when there’s already 3 men making a zimmun. Seemingly even though there’s an advantage of hearing birkat hamazon from a man, this is not allowed when there’s no zimmun of 3 men. (This matter requires further study.)

	**Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew\|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small>		**Seemingly, the [https://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=32520&st=&pgnum=144&hilite= Yad Haketana (Brachot 9:15 footnote 73)] would not allow a man to be motzi women in zimmun if there aren’t 3 men there. <small>(Since he says that women are not allowed to respond to a men's zimmun out loud, in order that it should not look like the men and women are in one group for zimmun, it would seem that he also wouldn't allow a man to lead a zimmun of 3 women when there's no zimmun of 3 men present. This in fact is the logic behind [https://www.sefaria.org/Responsa_Benei_Banim%2C_Volume_IV.4.9?vhe=hebrew\|Responsa_Benei_Banim,_Jerusalem_1981-2005&lang=bi Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach's ruling (quoted in Benei Banim 4:4:9 s.v. beram from Halichos Beisa)] to not allow this.)</small>

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:48, 3 April 2025
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	# Most authorities consider Zimmun to be a rabbinic obligation. <ref> Pri Megadim (A”A 197:2) writes that most authorities consider zimmun to be of rabbinic obligation. Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that Zimmun is derabbanan and some say it’s Deoritta. Chazon Ish (31:1) argues that Zimmun should be Deoritta. </ref>		# Most authorities consider Zimmun to be a rabbinic obligation. <ref> Pri Megadim (A”A 197:2) writes that most authorities consider zimmun to be of rabbinic obligation. Chaye Adam 48:1 writes that Zimmun is derabbanan and some say it’s Deoritta. Chazon Ish (31:1) argues that Zimmun should be Deoritta. </ref>
	# Zimmun could be said in any language as the purpose is to introduce the [[benching]] orally and join the group together to praise Hashem. <ref> Zohar (Balak pg 186b) writes that it’s important to precede [[benching]] with “give us a cup to bench” in Hebrew or Aramaic to introduce the [[benching]] to bring the [[kedusha]]. Mishna Brurah 192:2 quotes this and writes the minhag ashkenaz was to say Zimmun in Yiddish “Rabbotei Mir Velin Benchin”. Kol Bo (Siman 25) emphasizes the group merit of the zimmun. </ref>		# Zimmun could be said in any language as the purpose is to introduce the [[benching]] orally and join the group together to praise Hashem. <ref> Zohar (Balak pg 186b) writes that it’s important to precede [[benching]] with “give us a cup to bench” in Hebrew or Aramaic to introduce the [[benching]] to bring the [[kedusha]]. Mishna Brurah 192:2 quotes this and writes the minhag ashkenaz was to say Zimmun in Yiddish “Rabbotei Mir Velin Benchin”. Kol Bo (Siman 25) emphasizes the group merit of the zimmun. </ref>
	# Some say that answering Zimmun is considered one of a person’s hundred [[Brachot]] every day. <~~Ref~~> Sefer Keysad Mezamnin 1:22 </ref>		# Some say that answering Zimmun is considered one of a person’s hundred [[Brachot]] every day. <ref> Sefer [https://tablet.otzar.org/#/book/61272/p/63/t/1/fs/0/start/0/end/0/c Keysad Mezamnin 1:22] </ref>
	# When we say the zimmun Sephardim have a practice of starting “הב לן נברך למלכא עילאה קדישא”. Then for Shabbat they insert “ברשות שבת מלכתא” and for Yom Tov “ברשות יומא טבא אושפיזא קדישא”. For Sukkot the practice is to insert “וברשות שבעה אושפיזין עלאין קדישין”.<Ref>Ben Ish Chai Korach n. 1 records the minhag to insert special requests for permission from Shabbat, Yom Tov, and the Ushpizin. Yalkut Yosef 192:1 agrees. He cites the Yafeh Llev 1:192:5 who argues that this is a real minhag and it appears as though one is believing in two gods. Also he is degrading Hashem’s dynasty by comparing it with other entities. Yalkut Yosef defends the minhag that one’s intent isn’t to compare Hashem to anything and it is just for honor to mention them. Mayim Chaim 2:17 agrees.</ref>		# When we say the zimmun Sephardim have a practice of starting “הב לן נברך למלכא עילאה קדישא”. Then for Shabbat they insert “ברשות שבת מלכתא” and for Yom Tov “ברשות יומא טבא אושפיזא קדישא”. For Sukkot the practice is to insert “וברשות שבעה אושפיזין עלאין קדישין”.<Ref>Ben Ish Chai Korach n. 1 records the minhag to insert special requests for permission from Shabbat, Yom Tov, and the Ushpizin. Yalkut Yosef 192:1 agrees. He cites the Yafeh Llev 1:192:5 who argues that this is a real minhag and it appears as though one is believing in two gods. Also he is degrading Hashem’s dynasty by comparing it with other entities. Yalkut Yosef defends the minhag that one’s intent isn’t to compare Hashem to anything and it is just for honor to mention them. Mayim Chaim 2:17 agrees.</ref>
	# Some say that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun as well.<ref>[https://eretzhemdah.org/newsletterArticle.asp?lang=he&pageid=48&cat=1&newsletter=949&article=3637 Mareh Habazak 5:9] writes that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun since it is socially appropriate and nice it should be obligatory. He explains that the asking permission in zimmun isn’t really asking permission but just an honor. See the Sephardim practice of mentioning Shabbat and Yom Tov in the zimmun.</ref>		# Some say that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun as well.<ref>[https://eretzhemdah.org/newsletterArticle.asp?lang=he&pageid=48&cat=1&newsletter=949&article=3637 Mareh Habazak 5:9] writes that one should ask permission from the wife of the host in the zimmun since it is socially appropriate and nice it should be obligatory. He explains that the asking permission in zimmun isn’t really asking permission but just an honor. See the Sephardim practice of mentioning Shabbat and Yom Tov in the zimmun.</ref>
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	# If seven people ate bread and three people ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six people who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara.		# If seven people ate bread and three people ate a [[kezayit]] of another food or drank a [[reviyit]] of a drink<ref>The Kol Bo 25 cited by Bet Yosef has a doubt whether those joining have to eat a kezayit or reviyit of drink to join or anything is sufficient. Shulchan Aruch rules that a kezayit of food or reviyit of drink is necessary.</ref> other than water, they can join together for a Zimmun with the insertion of Elokenu. If there are only six people who ate bread they can't make a Zimmun with Elokenu. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 197:2. Rav is quoted in Gemara Brachot 48a as saying that if one of the ten ate a vegetable he can join for a zimmun. Tosfot s.v. tisha adds that even drinking counts like eating. Rambam Brachot 5:8, Tur and Shulchan Aruch 197:2 codify this gemara.
	* Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref>		* Rabbi Zeira asked whether two or three people who ate a vegetable can join and Rav Yehuda told him that they could. Rabbi Zeira didn't ask whether four who ate vegetables can join because he thought that you need a significant majority. Rabbi Yirmiya argued that four could join which there is still a majority of those who had bread. Rashi understands that Rabbi Zeira didn't ask original because of his idea but really he regretted that he didn't ask about four. The Bet Yosef 197:2 explains for the Rambam and others that Rabbi Zeira was steadfast in his opinion that four can't join. Interestingly, the Or Zaruah 1:197 cited by Bet Yosef in fact holds that four can join. Shulchan Aruch doesn't hold like the Or Zaruah.</ref>
	# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.<~~Ref~~>Sh"t ~~Bear~~ Moshe 1:2 compares standing for Elokenu of zimmun to standing for barchu and concludes that one should stand but if one doesn't there is what to rely upon. [https://www.yutorah.org/~~sidebar/lecture.cfm~~/897474~~/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-87-44b-45b-lishmor-chukav-zman-tefillin-muktzeh-mayim-letzmao-zimmun-/~~ Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 87 at the end)] said that Rav Soloveitchik's minhag was not to stand for Elokenu of zimmun of ten but those who do stand think that it is like a dvar shebekedusha (Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7).		# According to Sephardim, one doesn't have to stand for the word Elokenu in the Zimmun. <ref>Halacha Brurah 192:12</ref> Some Ashkenazim have the custom to stand for the word Elokenu in a zimmun of ten, however those who don't stand have what to rely on.<ref>[https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=887&pgnum=12 Sh"t Be’er Moshe 1:2] compares standing for Elokenu of zimmun to standing for barchu and concludes that one should stand but if one doesn't there is what to rely upon. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Schachter (Brachot Shiur 87 at the end)] said that Rav Soloveitchik's minhag was not to stand for Elokenu of zimmun of ten but those who do stand think that it is like a dvar shebekedusha ([https://www.sefaria.org/Kessef_Mishneh_on_Mishneh_Torah%2C_Blessings.5.7.3?lang=bi Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7]).
	* Is Zimmun a Dvar Shebekedusha? The Rambam Brachot 5:7 writes that even though women can have a zimun on their own they can’t have a zimun of ten with Elokenu. (Interestingly, the Sefer Meorot Brachot 45a argues on the Rambam.) Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7 explains that a zimun with Elokenu is a dvar shebekedusha. Meiri Brachot 47b s.v. nashim, Bach 199:7, Perisha 199:16, Ateret Tzvi 199:5, and Mishna Brurah 199:15 agree with this statement explicitly. However, Even Haazel Brachot 5:7 and Divrei Yirmiyahu Brachot 5:7 argue that zimun with Elokenu really isn’t a dvar shebekedusha but requires a minyan for the respect of Hashem’s name (Brachot 45b) and that’s why a child can join for zimun. (See Meiri who tries to address this.) Kavod Yom Tov Brachot 5:7 provides a compromise calling it a minor dvar shebekedusha.</ref>		*Is Zimmun a Dvar Shebekedusha? The Rambam Brachot 5:7 writes that even though women can have a zimun on their own they can’t have a zimun of ten with Elokenu. (Interestingly, the Sefer Meorot Brachot 45a argues on the Rambam.) Kesef Mishna Brachot 5:7 explains that a zimun with Elokenu is a dvar shebekedusha. Meiri Brachot 47b s.v. nashim, Bach 199:7, Perisha 199:16, Ateret Tzvi 199:5, and Mishna Brurah 199:15 agree with this statement explicitly. However, Even Haazel Brachot 5:7 and Divrei Yirmiyahu Brachot 5:7 argue that zimun with Elokenu really isn’t a dvar shebekedusha but requires a minyan for the respect of Hashem’s name (Brachot 45b) and that’s why a child can join for zimun. (See Meiri who tries to address this.) Kavod Yom Tov Brachot 5:7 provides a compromise calling it a minor dvar shebekedusha.</ref>

	==Two who ate together==		==Two who ate together==
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	# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>		# The original establishment was that the one doing Zimmun would read the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud. Nowadays, the practice is that everyone say it silently to themselves. <Ref> Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) quotes that Panim Meirot that the original establishment was that one person say it aloud and everyone listen. However, S”A 183:7 writes that the practice that should be followed nowadays is that one person say it aloud and everyone to follow along Bracha by Bracha. </ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.		# According to Ashkenazim it’s preferable to finish the Bracha before the Mezamen (one doing the Zimmun) and then when the Mezamen finishes answer [[Amen]]. According to Sephardim there’s no reason to finish before the Mezamen and if one did, nonetheless, one doesn’t answer [[Amen]]. <Ref>S”A and Rama 183:7, Vezot HaBracha (pg 128, chapter 14) </ref> See further on the [[Birkat HaMazon]] page.
	# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/~~sidebar/lecture.cfm~~/897474~~/rabbi-hershel-schachter/berachos-~~87-44b-45b~~-lishmor-chukav-zman-tefillin-muktzeh-mayim-letzmao-zimmun-/ Rav Schachter in Brachot Shiur 87~~ (~~min 70~~)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun.</ref>		# If it’s difficult to listen to the entire [[Birkat HaMazon]] out loud one should at least listen to the primary part of the Bracha, which according to Sephardim is Birkat Hazimmun (the words “Baruch SheAchalnu…Chayinu”) and according to Ashkenazim is through Birkat HaZan (the first Bracha of [[Birkat HaMazon]]). Therefore according to Ashkenazim the Mezamen (even if he is Sephardi) must say the first Bracha out loud and everyone should say it silently along with the Mezamen. <ref>S”A and Rama 200:1 identify clearly the crucial part of Zimmun, according to S”A it is the Zimmun of Baruch SheAchalnu and according to the Rama it is including the first Bracha. Mishna Brurah 183:28 holds that Ashkenazim should at least say the first Bracha quietly together with the Mezamen and those who have the minhag that everyone just says it to themselves are mistaken. This is also the opinion of Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) and he warns that not doing so is against the halacha. Vezot HaBracha (pg 335) quotes Rav Wosner in [https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=50286&pgnum=64 Kovetz MeBet Levi (Nissan 5758) pg. 64] who defends the minhag slightly. Yalkut Yosef (vol 3 pg 371) says that a Sephardi who is a Mezamen for Ashkenazim should say the first Bracha out loud. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/897474 Rav Hershel Schachter Shiur on Berachos #87 44b-45b (at 69:51)] said that Ashkenazim should have the mezamen say the entire birkat hamazon out loud slowly and everyone say it along with him and if they don't so they aren't fulfilling zimun. (However, at 70:53 he qualified his statement by saying that there is a partial fulfillment of zimun even when not hearing the ''entire'' birkat hamazon out loud.)</ref>
	# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>		# According to Ashkenazim, if there’s a large group and those [[benching]] will not hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha it’s preferable for the group to separate into groups of three so that it’s possible to hear the Mezamen until the end of the first Bracha. <Ref>Mishna Brurah 193:17, Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) also quotes the Chazon Ish who argues but still quotes the Mishna Brurah as the primary opinion. </ref>
	# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>		# It’s preferable that the Mezamen not use a microphone for Zimmun but rather someone with a loud voice do the Zimmun. <Ref>Vezot HaBracha (pg 129, chapter 14) </ref>