Materials to use for S'chach - Revision history

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-25T02:29:36Z

Bamboo Mats

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:29, 25 November 2025
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	# One may not use food as [[Schach]] since it is susceptible to impurity.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:3), Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 19</ref>		# One may not use food as [[Schach]] since it is susceptible to impurity.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:3), Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 19</ref>
	# One may use spices which are only meant to be smelled or flowers which are only meant as decoration as [[Schach]] since they are impervious to impurity.<ref>Rav Ovadyah Yosef in Chazon Ovadia ([[Sukkot]], p. 23)</ref>		# One may use spices which are only meant to be smelled or flowers which are only meant as decoration as [[Schach]] since they are impervious to impurity.<ref>Rav Ovadyah Yosef in Chazon Ovadia ([[Sukkot]], p. 23)</ref>
	# Even things that only can become tameh midirabanan are not kosher for ~~sechach~~.<ref> Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 21</ref>		# Even things that only can become tameh midirabanan are not kosher for schach.<ref> Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 21</ref>

	===Bamboo Mats===		===Bamboo Mats===
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	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.
	*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything.</ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1154928 Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39)], and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>		*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. (5) Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 29) and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 216) hold that there's no concern that schach mats are invalid since a person might leave them on top of his sukka to dry out (see Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:15).</ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1154928 Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39)], and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>
	# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>		# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>
	# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>		# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-24T22:40:12Z

Bamboo Mats

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:40, 24 November 2025
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	===Bamboo Mats===		===Bamboo Mats===
	# Bamboo mats made for [[S'chach]], which are 3x2 meters, are fit for [[S'chach]] according to most poskim.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadyah [[Sukkot]] pg 25-6), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Mesoret Moshe v. 1 p. 219), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo pg 128), Az Nidbaru (2:66, 12:35), Rav Wosner ([https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1416&pgnum=77 Sh"t Shevet HaLevi 6:74]), and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Herschel Schachter] (min 78-79:30) are all lenient to allow using bamboo mats. However, Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63) holds that it is invalid.		# Bamboo mats made for [[S'chach]], which are 3x2 meters, are fit for [[S'chach]] according to most poskim.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadyah [[Sukkot]] pg 25-6), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Mesoret Moshe v. 1 p. 219), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo pg 128), [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=877&st=&pgnum=114 Az Nidbaru (2:66], [https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=885&st=&pgnum=63 12:35]), Rav Wosner ([https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1416&pgnum=77 Sh"t Shevet HaLevi 6:74]), and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Herschel Schachter] (min 78-79:30) are all lenient to allow using bamboo mats. However, Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63) holds that it is invalid.
	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.
	*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. </ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1154928 Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39)], and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>		*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything.</ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1154928 Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39)], and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>
	# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>		# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>
	# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>		# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Schach Held Up by Unfit Items */

2025-11-20T23:00:29Z

Schach Held Up by Unfit Items

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:00, 20 November 2025
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	*The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame. Halichot Shlomo 8:10, Or Letzion 4:24:8, and Yabia Omer 10:46 hold maamid d'maamid is permissible unlike Chazon Ish. </ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref>		*The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame. Halichot Shlomo 8:10, Or Letzion 4:24:8, and Yabia Omer 10:46 hold maamid d'maamid is permissible unlike Chazon Ish. </ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref>
	#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref>		#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref>
	# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. Gra 630:1 quotes the Gra as does the Biur Halacha 630:1. Rav Vosner (Kovetz Mbeit Levi v 4, pg. 23), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5, 30), Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter] all follow the Ritva and allow maamid with a pasul derabbanan. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)]. However, Derech Hachaim 170:4, Mishna Brurah 629:25, and Chazon Ish 143:2 hold that maamid with something that is mekabel tumah midrabbanan is a problem. </ref>		# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as ''[[schach]] mi’derabanan'', such as natural twine.<ref>Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. Gra 630:1 quotes the Gra as does the Biur Halacha 630:1. Rav Vosner (Kovetz Mbeit Levi v 4, pg. 23), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5, 30), Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter] all follow the Ritva and allow maamid with a pasul derabbanan. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)]. However, Derech Hachaim 170:4, Mishna Brurah 629:25, and Chazon Ish 143:2 hold that maamid with something that is mekabel tumah midrabbanan is a problem. See Piskei Teshuvot 629 fnt. 29 who deals with the seeming contradiction in Mishna Brurah. </ref>
	#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref>		#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref>
	# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref>		# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Schach Held Up by Unfit Items */

2025-11-20T22:53:02Z

Schach Held Up by Unfit Items

YitzchakSultan1: /* Schach Held Up by Unfit Items */

2025-11-20T22:43:59Z

Schach Held Up by Unfit Items

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:43, 20 November 2025
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	* Even according to the first group of rishonim there are two limitations. The Ran writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of stone walls because no one uses stones for [[schach]] and no one will make a mistake to think that it is kosher. Additionally, the Ramban writes that placing [[schach]] on top of poles on top of a bed is permitted since the bed is acting as a ground for the [[sukkah]] and isn’t directly supporting the [[schach]].		* Even according to the first group of rishonim there are two limitations. The Ran writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of stone walls because no one uses stones for [[schach]] and no one will make a mistake to think that it is kosher. Additionally, the Ramban writes that placing [[schach]] on top of poles on top of a bed is permitted since the bed is acting as a ground for the [[sukkah]] and isn’t directly supporting the [[schach]].
	* What’s the halacha? Since Shulchan Aruch O.C. 630:13 holds like the Rosh, it would seem to be clear that is permitted to use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]]. However, Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:7 has a doubt whether it is permitted to place a ladder on top of [[schach]]. The Magen Avraham 629:9 suggests an explanation in which he forbids using a ladder that is susceptible to tumah lechatchila and would only permit it after the fact. Mishna Brurah 630:59 writes that it is permitted, but it is proper to be concerned for the opinions who are strict. </ref> According to most leading authorities, however, it's permissible to place [[S'chach]] on top of a material that's fit for [[S'chach]] which is in turn held up by something that's unfit for [[S'chach]]. Therefore, if one has a metal frame one should place wooden planks on the frame and then [[S'chach]] on top of it.<ref>Mishna Brurah 629:26, BeYitzchak Yikra (Rav Nevinsal) on that Mishna Brurah quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer 10:46 and Chazon Ovadyah Sukkot pg 44), and Or Letzion 4:24:8 are lenient unlike the Chazon Ish 143:2-3. [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Hershel Schachter] (62:30-66:15) also seems to be lenient. See Chelkat Yaakov 3:127, Minchat Shlomo 2:55, and Moadim U'zmanim 1:82.		* What’s the halacha? Since Shulchan Aruch O.C. 630:13 holds like the Rosh, it would seem to be clear that is permitted to use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]]. However, Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:7 has a doubt whether it is permitted to place a ladder on top of [[schach]]. The Magen Avraham 629:9 suggests an explanation in which he forbids using a ladder that is susceptible to tumah lechatchila and would only permit it after the fact. Mishna Brurah 630:59 writes that it is permitted, but it is proper to be concerned for the opinions who are strict. </ref> According to most leading authorities, however, it's permissible to place [[S'chach]] on top of a material that's fit for [[S'chach]] which is in turn held up by something that's unfit for [[S'chach]]. Therefore, if one has a metal frame one should place wooden planks on the frame and then [[S'chach]] on top of it.<ref>Mishna Brurah 629:26, BeYitzchak Yikra (Rav Nevinsal) on that Mishna Brurah quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer 10:46 and Chazon Ovadyah Sukkot pg 44), and Or Letzion 4:24:8 are lenient unlike the Chazon Ish 143:2-3. [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Hershel Schachter] (62:30-66:15) also seems to be lenient. See Chelkat Yaakov 3:127, Minchat Shlomo 2:55, and Moadim U'zmanim 1:82.
	* The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame.</ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref>		*The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame. Halichot Shlomo 8:10, Or Letzion 4:24:8, and Yabia Omer 10:46 hold maamid d'maamid is permissible unlike Chazon Ish. </ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref>
	#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this~~. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Rav Moshe Heinemann (and Star-K)] is also lenient~~. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref>		#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref>
	# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Rav Vosner cited in the Beit Levi Cheilek 4, pg. 23, Chazon Ovadia p. 30, Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter]. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. This is based on the opinion of the Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b). Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)].</ref>		# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Rav Vosner cited in the Beit Levi Cheilek 4, pg. 23, Chazon Ovadia p. 30, Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter]. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. This is based on the opinion of the Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b). Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)]. However, Derech Hachaim 170:4, Mishna Brurah 629:25, and Chazon Ish 143:2 hold that maamid with something that is mekabel tumah midrabbanan is a problem. </ref>
	#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref>		#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref>
	# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref>		# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-19T19:29:06Z

Bamboo Mats

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:29, 19 November 2025
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	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.
	*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. </ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39), and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>		*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. </ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/1154928 Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39)], and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>
	# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>		# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>
	# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>		# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-19T19:00:55Z

Bamboo Mats

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:00, 19 November 2025
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	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.
	*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. </ref>		*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. </ref> Some poskim are strict and do not allow using mats from bamboo or reeds for schach.<ref>Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63), Rabbi Morechai Willig (Shiur Sukkah 28, min 38-39), and Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani, Sukkot p. 214) hold that the mats shouldn’t be used since they might have been made for sleeping on since they’re produced in China or far east. </ref>
	# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>		# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>
	# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>		# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-18T22:45:35Z

Bamboo Mats

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:45, 18 November 2025
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	===Bamboo Mats===		===Bamboo Mats===
	# Bamboo mats made for [[S'chach]], which are 3x2 meters, are fit for [[S'chach]] according to most poskim.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadyah [[Sukkot]] pg 25-6), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Mesoret Moshe v. 1 p. 219), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo pg 128), Az Nidbaru (2:66, 12:35), and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Herschel Schachter] (min 78-79:30) are all lenient to allow using bamboo mats. However, Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63) holds that it is invalid~~. See also Sh"t Shevet HaLevi 6:74~~.		# Bamboo mats made for [[S'chach]], which are 3x2 meters, are fit for [[S'chach]] according to most poskim.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadyah [[Sukkot]] pg 25-6), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Mesoret Moshe v. 1 p. 219), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo pg 128), Az Nidbaru (2:66, 12:35), Rav Wosner ([https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1416&pgnum=77 Sh"t Shevet HaLevi 6:74]), and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Herschel Schachter] (min 78-79:30) are all lenient to allow using bamboo mats. However, Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63) holds that it is invalid.
	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.</ref>		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.
			*Here is a breakdown of the issues involved: (1) Are the mats made to be slept upon? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned that the mats are made to be slept upon even in Israel, while Az Nidbaru and Rav Ovadia aren't concerned because they hold that in fact people in Israel do not sleep on these bamboo mats made for schach. Also, the bamboo mats are made to be larger the size of a bed are kosher since it isn't normal to make them for people to sleep upon (Rav Ovadia, based on Bikkurei Yakov and Mishna Brurah (Shaar Hatziyun 629:24)). (2) Is there a concern that people will think that people made the mats for sleeping (''marit ayin'')? Tzitz Eliezer is concerned for this issue, but Rav Ovadia is not concerned because firstly it is not used for sleeping upon in Israel (according to his view) and this concern of marit ayin is subject to debate. Tzitz Eliezer holds that everyone agrees that marit ayin is an issue, while Rav Ovadia argues that Shulchan Aruch holds that there is no concern for marit ayin as he rules like the Rid unlike the Rosh. (3) Is it likely people will assume if you can use mats for schach they can also use a real home roof for a sukkah? Rav Elyashiv argues that since the pieces of the mat are strung together altogether they become one piece that is wider than 4 tefachim which would make it invalid schach, since it could be used for roofing according to chazal (gezerat tikra). However, Rav Ovadia argues that the mats aren't used for roof nowadays and also since it rolls up it isn't similar to a large wooden board. Shevet Halevi also writes this second argument. (4) The mats are strung together by material which is invalid for schach (''maamid''). Rav Wosner writes that this issue is an issue if without that string the bamboo would fall down. However, if the bamboo wouldn't fall down even if the string were removed it isn't an issue of ''maamid'' and is valid. Star-K writes that a person should put up the mats so that the bamboo pieces are perpendicular to the beams or walls, so that the two ends of the bamboo pieces are resting on beams or walls. That is opposed to setting up the bamboo parallel to the walls and beams such that the middle bamboo pieces aren't resting on anything. </ref>
	# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>		# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>
	# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>		# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-18T21:14:56Z

Bamboo Mats

YitzchakSultan1: /* Bamboo Mats */

2025-11-17T23:04:24Z

Bamboo Mats

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:04, 17 November 2025
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	===Bamboo Mats===		===Bamboo Mats===
	# Bamboo mats made for [[S'chach]], which are 3x2 meters, are fit for [[S'chach]] according to most poskim. <ref>Chazon Ovadyah ([[Sukkot]] pg 25-6), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Mesoret Moshe v. 1 p. 219). Halichot Shlomo (pg 128) and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Herschel Schachter] (min 78-79:30) are ~~also~~ lenient ~~unlike~~ Rav Elyashiv (~~quoted by~~ Sh"t Shevet HaLevi 6:74~~) who is strict~~.		# Bamboo mats made for [[S'chach]], which are 3x2 meters, are fit for [[S'chach]] according to most poskim.<ref>Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadyah [[Sukkot]] pg 25-6), Rav Moshe Feinstein (Mesoret Moshe v. 1 p. 219), Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo pg 128), Az Nidbaru (2:66, 12:35), and [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Herschel Schachter] (min 78-79:30) are all lenient to allow using bamboo mats. However, Rav Elyashiv (Kovetz Teshuvot 1:63) holds that it is invalid. See also Sh"t Shevet HaLevi 6:74.
	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.</ref>		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.</ref>

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:53, 20 November 2025
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	==Schach Held Up by Unfit Items==		==Schach Held Up by Unfit Items==
	# It's preferable not to put the [[S'chach]] directly on top of walls which are made out of material that's unfit for [[S'chach]].<ref> Mishna Brurah 630:59, Chazon Ovadyah ([[Sukkot]] pg 44)		# It's preferable not to put the [[S'chach]] directly on top of walls which are made out of material that's unfit for [[S'chach]].<ref> Magen Avraham 629:9, Mishna Brurah 630:59, Chazon Ovadyah ([[Sukkot]] pg 44)
	<br />		<br />
	* The Mishna ([[Sukkah]] 21b) cites Rabbi Yehuda who holds that one may not use bed boards for [[sukkah]] walls unless the [[schach]] is held up by something else. The Gemara records a dispute regarding Rabbi Yehuda’s reason; either it is because the [[sukkah]] isn’t considered a suitable dwelling without additional poles for support or because the [[schach]] is being held up by something that is susceptible to tumah. The Raavad ([[Sukkah]] 10a), Ramban (Milchamot [[Sukkah]] 10a), and Ran ([[Sukkah]] 10a s.v. Matnitin) understand that the primary reason for Rabbi Yehuda is that one may use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]] as a gezerah that one may come to use it as [[schach]] itself.		*The Mishna ([[Sukkah]] 21b) cites Rabbi Yehuda who holds that one may not use bed boards for [[sukkah]] walls unless the [[schach]] is held up by something else. The Gemara records a dispute regarding Rabbi Yehuda’s reason; either it is because the [[sukkah]] isn’t considered a suitable dwelling without additional poles for support or because the [[schach]] is being held up by something that is susceptible to tumah. The Raavad ([[Sukkah]] 10a), Ramban (Milchamot [[Sukkah]] 10a), and Ran ([[Sukkah]] 10a s.v. Matnitin) understand that the primary reason for Rabbi Yehuda is that one may use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]] as a gezerah that one may come to use it as [[schach]] itself.
	* The Rosh ([[Sukkah]] 2:1) writes that the halacha follows Rabbi Yehuda and his reasoning is that when the [[schach]] is placed on top of a bed, there is only a small area between the [[schach]] and the bed, which isn’t suitable for use. The Trumat HaDeshen (responsa 91), Tur and S”A 630:13 agree.		*The Rosh ([[Sukkah]] 2:1) writes that the halacha follows Rabbi Yehuda and his reasoning is that when the [[schach]] is placed on top of a bed, there is only a small area between the [[schach]] and the bed, which isn’t suitable for use. The Trumat HaDeshen (responsa 91), Tur and S”A 630:13 agree.
	* Lastly, the Baal HaMeor ([[Sukkah]] 10a) holds like the rabbanan and we shouldn’t be concerned with either reason above.		*Lastly, the Baal HaMeor ([[Sukkah]] 10a) holds like the rabbanan and we shouldn’t be concerned with either reason above. Hashlama holds that Rambam does not hold of maamid, as is evident from Pirush Mishnayot. Shaar Hatziyun 630:60 notes this is the opinion of Rambam as hold as Maharitz Gayitz and Rid.
	* Even according to the first group of rishonim there are two limitations. The Ran writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of stone walls because no one uses stones for [[schach]] and no one will make a mistake to think that it is kosher. Additionally, the Ramban writes that placing [[schach]] on top of poles on top of a bed is permitted since the bed is acting as a ground for the [[sukkah]] and isn’t directly supporting the [[schach]].		*Even according to the first group of rishonim there are two limitations. The Ran writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of stone walls because no one uses stones for [[schach]] and no one will make a mistake to think that it is kosher. Additionally, the Ramban writes that placing [[schach]] on top of poles on top of a bed is permitted since the bed is acting as a ground for the [[sukkah]] and isn’t directly supporting the [[schach]].
	* What’s the halacha? Since Shulchan Aruch O.C. 630:13 holds like the Rosh, it would seem to be clear that is permitted to use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]]. However, Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:7 has a doubt whether it is permitted to place a ladder on top of [[schach]]. The Magen Avraham 629:9 suggests an explanation in which he forbids using a ladder that is susceptible to tumah lechatchila and would only permit it after the fact. Mishna Brurah 630:59 writes that it is permitted, but it is proper to be concerned for the opinions who are strict. </ref> According to most leading authorities, however, it's permissible to place [[S'chach]] on top of a material that's fit for [[S'chach]] which is in turn held up by something that's unfit for [[S'chach]]. Therefore, if one has a metal frame one should place wooden planks on the frame and then [[S'chach]] on top of it.<ref>Mishna Brurah 629:26, BeYitzchak Yikra (Rav Nevinsal) on that Mishna Brurah quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer 10:46 and Chazon Ovadyah Sukkot pg 44), and Or Letzion 4:24:8 are lenient unlike the Chazon Ish 143:2-3. [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Hershel Schachter] (62:30-66:15) also seems to be lenient. See Chelkat Yaakov 3:127, Minchat Shlomo 2:55, and Moadim U'zmanim 1:82.		*What’s the halacha? Since Shulchan Aruch O.C. 630:13 holds like the Rosh, it would seem to be clear that is permitted to use items that are susceptible to tumah to hold up the [[schach]]. However, Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:7 has a doubt whether it is permitted to place a ladder on top of [[schach]]. The Magen Avraham 629:9 suggests an explanation in which he forbids using a ladder that is susceptible to tumah lechatchila and would only permit it after the fact. Mishna Brurah 630:59 writes that it is permitted, but it is proper to be concerned for the opinions who are strict.</ref> According to most leading authorities, however, it's permissible to place [[S'chach]] on top of a material that's fit for [[S'chach]] which is in turn held up by something that's unfit for [[S'chach]]. Therefore, if one has a metal frame one should place wooden planks on the frame and then [[S'chach]] on top of it.<ref>Mishna Brurah 629:26, BeYitzchak Yikra (Rav Nevinsal) on that Mishna Brurah quoting Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach, Rav Ovadia Yosef (Yabia Omer 10:46 and Chazon Ovadyah Sukkot pg 44), and Or Letzion 4:24:8 are lenient unlike the Chazon Ish 143:2-3. [http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/764662/Rabbi_Hershel_Schachter/%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%99%D7%A0%D7%99_%D7%99%D7%95%D7%94%D7%9B'%D7%A4_%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA Rav Hershel Schachter] (62:30-66:15) also seems to be lenient. See Chelkat Yaakov 3:127, Minchat Shlomo 2:55, and Moadim U'zmanim 1:82.
	*The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame. Halichot Shlomo 8:10, Or Letzion 4:24:8, and Yabia Omer 10:46 hold maamid d'maamid is permissible unlike Chazon Ish. </ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref>		*The Magen Avraham 629:9 permits using metal nails to support the poles of the [[sukkah]] since they don’t directly support the [[schach]]. For example, the Bikkurei Yacov 629:15 writes that it is permitted to place [[schach]] on top of wooden poles on top of walls which are susceptible to impurity. The Chazon Ish (O.C. 143:2) argues since we can’t distinguish between different layers of [[schach]] and simply state the top layer of kosher [[schach]] is supported by another layer that is in turn supported by an item that is susceptible to tumah. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkah]]”, min 44-6, 62-4) noted that although the Chazon Ish’s argument is reasonable, the minhag follows the Magen Avraham and allows placing [[schach]] on top of planks on top of a metal frame. Halichot Shlomo 8:10, Or Letzion 4:24:8, and Yabia Omer 10:46 hold maamid d'maamid is permissible unlike Chazon Ish. </ref> After the fact, if the [[schach]] was placed directly on metal, it is kosher.<ref> Mishna Brurah 629:22 and 630:58 </ref>
	#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref>		#There is a dispute among the poskim whether maamid applies to anything which is invalid for schach but isn't mekabel tumah, such as plastic that doesn't grow from the ground but isn't mekabel tumah. Many are strict to consider it maamid, but some are lenient.<ref>[https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1133&pgnum=138 Maharil Diskin 56] is lenient about this since Shulchan Aruch only mentions maamid regarding items are mekabel tumah and doesn't mention it for any other invalid schach. Rav Henkin (Gevurat Eliyahu siman 164, p. 301) is lenient on things that don't grow from the ground and aren't mekabel tumah. In fnt. 1185 he writes that Rav Moshe Feinstein agreed with Rav Henkin about this. However, Bet Hasho'eyva (Makom Hareuy Lsukkah n. 16) is strict about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground even though it isn't mekabel tumah. Kaf Hachaim 627:40 quotes this and Ginat Veradim who seems to be lenient on this. Additionally, Rav Shlomo Miller (Shoshat Yisrael p. 16) is strict about bamboo mats made with plastic threads because plastic doesn't grow from the ground. Rivevot Efraim 8:242:2 and Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkos” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) are strict. Halichot Shlomo p. 128 fnt. 14 quotes that Rav Shlomo Zalman thought the Maharil Diskin's leniency is strange since it is against the Ran and Magen Avraham but the Meiri does say it. Chazon Ovadia p. 47 quotes this whole discussion and notes that the Itur and Meiri 22 are lenient about maamid with something that doesn't grow from the ground but also wonders why the Maharil Diskin was lenient since the Ran and most other rishonim were strict about this. </ref>
	# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Rav Vosner ~~cited in the Beit~~ Levi ~~Cheilek~~ 4, pg. 23, Chazon Ovadia p. 30, Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter]~~. Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up~~ the ~~[[schach]] since the entire issue of~~ maamid ~~is only~~ a ~~gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. This is based on the opinion of the Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b)~~. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)]. However, Derech Hachaim 170:4, Mishna Brurah 629:25, and Chazon Ish 143:2 hold that maamid with something that is mekabel tumah midrabbanan is a problem. </ref>		# One should ideally avoid [[tying]] the [[schach]] down with a material that would not serve as kosher [[schach]] if the [[schach]] would be unable to withstand regular wind independently.<ref> Be’tzel Ha’Chochma 5:44</ref> However, many poskim permit in all circumstances to tie down [[schach]] with material that is only invalid as [[schach]] mi’derabanan, such as natural twine.<ref>Ritva ([[Sukkah]] 11b) writes that it is permitted to use a material that is only rabbinically invalid in order to hold up the [[schach]] since the entire issue of maamid is only a gezerah, so the rabbis would never have instituted a gezerah l’gezerah. Gra 630:1 quotes the Gra as does the Biur Halacha 630:1. Rav Vosner (Kovetz Mbeit Levi v 4, pg. 23), Rav Ovadia Yosef (Chazon Ovadia p. 24-5, 30), Or Letzion 4:24:9, and [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ Rav Schachter] all follow the Ritva and allow maamid with a pasul derabbanan. Rav Schachter (“Inyonei Sukkah”, min 44-6, 62-4) agreed, though he questioned it because this seems to fall into the category of a double d'rabbanan and not a gezerah l’gezerah. This is reiterated in [https://www.yutorah.org/sidebar/lecture.cfm/972040/rabbi-hershel-schachter/inyonei-succos-5781/ another shiur ("Inyonei Succos 5781" min 22-28)]. However, Derech Hachaim 170:4, Mishna Brurah 629:25, and Chazon Ish 143:2 hold that maamid with something that is mekabel tumah midrabbanan is a problem. </ref>
	#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref>		#Using zip-ties to tie down the schach so that they don't blow away is a problem if otherwise the schach would blow away in a normal wind. After the fact, the sukkah is still acceptable, though it should be avoided. If the schach is secure enough that it'll stay for a normal wind then using the zip-ties is totally fine since it is only adding extra security to avoid uncommon winds.<ref>Rav Nissim Karelitz (Chut Shani p. 210) writes that a person should not tie down his schach with zip ties. But if his schach would have stayed in a normal anyway without the zip ties it is fine to use them because of an abnormal wind. Piskei Teshuvot 629:11 agrees and also quotes this from Avnei Yishfeh 1:120. [https://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/818822/rabbi-aryeh-lebowitz/ten-minute-halacha-holding-the-schach-down-with-zipties/ Rav Aryeh Lebowitz] explains that the only issue of zip ties is maamid since it enables the schach to be held in place and not blow away. The entire issue of maamid is rabbinic and initially an issue but not after the fact. If the schach would be able to withstand normal winds then you can add the zip ties to add security so it doesn't blow off in an uncommon wind (ruach sheino metzuya). [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/431/guide-to-star-k-certified-schach/ Star-K] and [https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-news/ou-kosher-experts-answer-sukkot-questons-sukkah-schach-eating-sukkah/ OU] come to the same conclusion in terms of it only being an issue if it is going to blow away in a normal wind.</ref>
	# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref>		# One shouldn't use [[schach]] with a foul odor or whose leaves are falling off because there is a concern that the person may come to leave his [[sukkah]] because of the smell or the leaves falling on him.<ref> Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1), Shulchan Aruch O.C. 629:14, Chazon Ovadia pg. 30, Magen Avraham 629:15, Kaf Hachaim 639:81 </ref> After the fact, it is valid.<ref>Rambam ([[Sukkah]] 5:1)</ref>

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	*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.		*Chazon Ovadia (p. 23) writes that bamboo mats that are strung together with organic materials or cotton are valid [[schach]]. He reasons that it is similar to the case of the mat which is used only for [[schach]] and is recognizable for that purpose. Therefore, the mats aren’t susceptible to impurity. Also, it isn’t similar to a roof as there are spaces between the planks and can be folded up. Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach (Halichot Shlomo p. 128) and Rav Hershel Schachter (עניני יוה”כ וסוכות, min 78-79:30) agreed.
	*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.</ref>		*Tzitz Eliezer 10:29 writes that one shouldn't use reed or straw mats for [[Schach]]. The reasoning is that the mats are sometimes used for sitting, sleeping, or containing items in which case they are impure. This would be a biblical invalidation. He adds that even if its designated to be used for [[schach]] there would be a rabbinic prohibition lest it be confused with those that are are unfit. Additionally, sometimes it is used as for roofing in which case they would be unfit as it looks like a real roof.</ref>
	# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>		# Regarding the use of hemp string to tie the bamboo for the [[schach]] together, most poskim are lenient.<ref> Regarding the hemp string used to tie the bamboos together, Rav Ovadia (Chazon Ovadia p. 30) writes that using string made from organic material for [[schach]] is only invalid rabbinically according to the Rambam if it is altered from its natural form (or according to the Raavad because it is useable for clothing). Since it is only a rabbinic issue, Rav Ovadia reasons that it is permitted to use it in order to hold up or hold together the [[schach]]. See the next footnote regarding maamid regarding items that are rabbinically invalid. Accordingly, Rav Schachter (“Inyonei [[Sukkos]]” on Yutorah.org min 60-4) permitted using hemp or cotton strings to hold together the bamboo mats. </ref> Some are concerned when the strings used to tie the mats are spun and others aren't.<Ref>Rashi Shabbat 64a s.v. yachol holds that any string that the fibers of which are spun by themselves are mekabel tumah. The Rambam (Sukkah 5:4, Kelim 22:1) disagrees and the Meiri 64a s.v. kilki explains the dispute in how to learn the gemara. The Shulchan Aruch (Bet Yosef 629:5) follows the Rambam as does the Mishna Brurah, but the Shaar Hatziyun 629:20 notes Rashi. Rav Moshe Feinstein (Igrot Moshe 1:177) in discussing venetian blinds also seems to be strict for Rashi. [https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/ Rav Heinemann] is strict for Rashi. Rav Hershel Schachter is not concerned for Rashi since the Shulchan Aruch followed the Rambam.</ref>
			# Some poskim (Star-K) recommend using monofilament nylon strings to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://www.star-k.org/articles/articles/seasonal/428/undercover-the-halachos-of-schach/#footnotes Star-K]</ref>
			# Other poskim (Badatz Edah Charedit) recommend using strips of natural material to hold the bamboo together.<ref>[https://sukkatrachamim.com/products/luxury-bamboo-mat?srsltid=AfmBOorkAwLZb8MwjRrELXeNXuHEcxtDS5d0EXYTOUfurqNY0gy2z4r2 Badatz Edah Charedit]</ref>

	==Thickness of the Schach==		==Thickness of the Schach==
	# The [[S'chach]] should be made so that there is a majority of shade and minority of sunlight that's let through the [[S'chach]]. If there's an equal amount of shade and sun in the actual [[S'chach]] it's unfit but if there's an equal amount of shade to light that shines on the floor of the [[Sukkah]] it's fit. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:1 and 4 </ref>		# The [[S'chach]] should be made so that there is a majority of shade and minority of sunlight that's let through the [[S'chach]]. If there's an equal amount of shade and sun in the actual [[S'chach]] it's unfit but if there's an equal amount of shade to light that shines on the floor of the [[Sukkah]] it's fit.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:1 and 4 </ref>
	# The [[S'chach]] should be thin enough that one can see the large stars through the [[S'chach]]. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:3, Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 24. The Pri Megadim E”A 631:11 writes that it is sufficient as long as the stars are visible from one point in the [[sukkah]]. </ref>		# The [[S'chach]] should be thin enough that one can see the large stars through the [[S'chach]].<ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:3, Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 24. The Pri Megadim E”A 631:11 writes that it is sufficient as long as the stars are visible from one point in the [[sukkah]]. </ref>
	# If one made the [[S'chach]] very thick so that one can't see the stars nonetheless it's fit. However, if it's so thick that when it rains a lot water won't come in then some poskim hold that it's unfit, unless there's no way to remove some [[S'chach]] in which case one may rely on the lenient opinions. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:3, Mishna Brurah 631:6.		# If one made the [[S'chach]] very thick so that one can't see the stars nonetheless it's fit. However, if it's so thick that when it rains a lot water won't come in then some poskim hold that it's unfit, unless there's no way to remove some [[S'chach]] in which case one may rely on the lenient opinions.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:3, Mishna Brurah 631:6.
	* The Mordechai Sukkah 1:732 writes that a sukkah that is so thick that it doesn't allow rain to fall in, according to Rashi is kosher, but not according to Rabbenu Tam.		* The Mordechai Sukkah 1:732 writes that a sukkah that is so thick that it doesn't allow rain to fall in, according to Rashi is kosher, but not according to Rabbenu Tam.
	* Shulchan Aruch HaRav 631:5 holds that it is not kosher.		* Shulchan Aruch HaRav 631:5 holds that it is not kosher.
	* Birkei Yosef 631:2 holds that although it is not ideal, it is still kosher. Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 24 writes that we can rely on the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch and even recite a beracha in such a sukkah but it is preferable to remove some sechach in such a scenario (and if it is shabbat or yom tov to ask a non-Jew to do so for you.		* Birkei Yosef 631:2 holds that although it is not ideal, it is still kosher. Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 24 writes that we can rely on the opinion of the Shulchan Aruch and even recite a beracha in such a sukkah but it is preferable to remove some sechach in such a scenario (and if it is shabbat or yom tov to ask a non-Jew to do so for you.
	* Mishna Brurah 631:6 concludes that if there's no way to remove some [[S'chach]] one may rely on the lenient opinions. </ref> If one does remove some sechach, he does not need to shake the rest of the sechach in order of avoid taaseh vilo min haasuy.<ref> Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 37, Shaar Hatziyun 631:5, Eliya Rabba 631:4, Mateh Ephraim 626:17 </ref>		* Mishna Brurah 631:6 concludes that if there's no way to remove some [[S'chach]] one may rely on the lenient opinions. </ref> If one does remove some sechach, he does not need to shake the rest of the sechach in order of avoid taaseh vilo min haasuy.<ref> Chazon Ovadia Sukkot pg. 37, Shaar Hatziyun 631:5, Eliya Rabba 631:4, Mateh Ephraim 626:17 </ref>
	# If one made the [[S'chach]] very thin so that there's patches of empty space it's fit only if (1) there's no area of empty space larger than 3 [[Tefachim]] and (2) there is a majority of shade and minority of sunlight (counting the entire area of the [[S'chach]]). Even if it's an acceptable [[Sukkah]], nonetheless, if there's a patch of 7x7 [[Tefachim]] which has more sunlight than shade one may not sit in that area. <ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:2 and 4 rules that if altogether there's a majority of shade and minority of sunlight and there's no open space of 3 [[Tefachim]] it's fit. Rama 631:2 adds that some are strict if there's an area of 7x7 [[Tefachim]] which has more sunlight than shade. The Aruch HaShulchan 631:5 and Mishna Brurah 631:4 writes that in such an area one may not sit. Mishna Brurah adds that if there's such a patch that breaks up one of the walls so that there's only 2 walls left then it puts the whole [[sukkah]] into question. </ref>		# If one made the [[S'chach]] very thin so that there's patches of empty space it's fit only if (1) there's no area of empty space larger than 3 [[Tefachim]] and (2) there is a majority of shade and minority of sunlight (counting the entire area of the [[S'chach]]). Even if it's an acceptable [[Sukkah]], nonetheless, if there's a patch of 7x7 [[Tefachim]] which has more sunlight than shade one may not sit in that area.<ref>Shulchan Aruch 631:2 and 4 rules that if altogether there's a majority of shade and minority of sunlight and there's no open space of 3 [[Tefachim]] it's fit. Rama 631:2 adds that some are strict if there's an area of 7x7 [[Tefachim]] which has more sunlight than shade. The Aruch HaShulchan 631:5 and Mishna Brurah 631:4 writes that in such an area one may not sit. Mishna Brurah adds that if there's such a patch that breaks up one of the walls so that there's only 2 walls left then it puts the whole [[sukkah]] into question. </ref>
	==Invalid Schach and Airspaces==		==Invalid Schach and Airspaces==
	[[Image:Sukkah horizontal split.png\|frame\|100px\|area beneath invalid schach is valid<ref>The invalid schach invalidates the entire area above the invalid schach. However, the area below is valid as long as there are 3 walls surrounding 7x7 tefachim of valid schach (Mishna Brurah 632:14-5).</ref>]]		[[Image:Sukkah horizontal split.png\|frame\|100px\|area beneath invalid schach is valid<ref>The invalid schach invalidates the entire area above the invalid schach. However, the area below is valid as long as there are 3 walls surrounding 7x7 tefachim of valid schach (Mishna Brurah 632:14-5).</ref>]]
	[[Image:Sukkah vertical split.png\|frame\|100px\|invalid<ref>This sukkah is invalid because the invalid schach in the middle splits the sukkah in two. Therefore, each half only has 2 walls which is insufficient (Mishna Brurah 632:2).</ref>]]		[[Image:Sukkah vertical split.png\|frame\|100px\|invalid<ref>This sukkah is invalid because the invalid schach in the middle splits the sukkah in two. Therefore, each half only has 2 walls which is insufficient (Mishna Brurah 632:2).</ref>]]
	# If there are less than 3 [[tefachim]] of invalid [[schach]] in middle of the [[sukkah]], the [[sukkah]] is valid and one may sit underneath that invalid [[schach]]. If there are between 3 and 4 [[tefachim]] of invalid [[schach]], the [[sukkah]] is valid, but one shouldn’t sit underneath that [[schach]].<ref> S”A 632:1, Rama 632:2, Mishna Brurah 632:3</ref>		# If there are less than 3 [[tefachim]] of invalid [[schach]] in middle of the [[sukkah]], the [[sukkah]] is valid and one may sit underneath that invalid [[schach]]. If there are between 3 and 4 [[tefachim]] of invalid [[schach]], the [[sukkah]] is valid, but one shouldn’t sit underneath that [[schach]].<ref> S”A 632:1, Rama 632:2, Mishna Brurah 632:3</ref>
	# 3 [[tefachim]] of airspace or 4 [[tefachim]] of invalid [[schach]] may invalidate the [[sukkah]] (see pictures on side). Anything less will not. <ref> ~~S”A~~ and Rama 632:2 </ref>		# 3 [[tefachim]] of airspace or 4 [[tefachim]] of invalid [[schach]] may invalidate the [[sukkah]] (see pictures on side). Anything less will not.<ref> Shulchan Aruch and Rama O.C. 632:2 </ref>
	# One can’t sit underneath an airspace the size of one’s head or body <ref> While the Rama 632:2 writes “rosho ve’rubo” the Mishna Brurah 632:12 quotes the Ran and Ritva who hold either “rosho” or “rubo.”</ref> even if it is less than 3 [[tefachim]]. Also, one can’t sit underneath an airspace that goes across the entire length of the [[sukkah]] even if it is less than 3 [[tefachim]]. <ref> S”A 632:2, Mishna Brurah 632:12</ref>		# One can’t sit underneath an airspace the size of one’s head or body<ref> While the Rama 632:2 writes “rosho ve’rubo” the Mishna Brurah 632:12 quotes the Ran and Ritva who hold either “rosho” or “rubo.”</ref> even if it is less than 3 [[tefachim]]. Also, one can’t sit underneath an airspace that goes across the entire length of the [[sukkah]] even if it is less than 3 [[tefachim]].<ref> S”A 632:2, Mishna Brurah 632:12</ref>
	# If there is an airspace of 3 [[tefachim]] along a wall of the [[sukkah]] that wall isn’t considered part of the [[sukkah]]. If less than two and a half walls remain, the [[sukkah]] is invalid.<ref> S”A 632:2, Biur Halacha 632 s.v. avir </ref>		# If there is an airspace of 3 [[tefachim]] along a wall of the [[sukkah]] that wall isn’t considered part of the [[sukkah]]. If less than two and a half walls remain, the [[sukkah]] is invalid.<ref> S”A 632:2, Biur Halacha 632 s.v. avir </ref>